Skip to main content

EP. 1 Pennsylvania: del ‘cinturón de óxido’ al ‘cinturón latino’

Tráiler – Bukele: el señor de Los sueños
EP. 1 Alguien como Bukele
EP. 2 Muévete rápido, rompe cosas
EP. 3 La hora de la medicina amarga
EP. 4 El evangelio (del Bitcoin) según Bukele
EP. 5 ‘Batman’ descubre el viejo negocio de la violencia
EP. 6 La última elección
EP. 7 Después de Bukele
Tráiler: El péndulo
EP. 1 Pennsylvania: del ‘cinturón de óxido’ al ‘cinturón latino’
EP. 2 Nevada: la preocupación por la economía
EP. 3 Florida: donde América Latina vota
EP. 4 Arizona: demócratas y republicanos en la frontera
EP. 5 Carolina del Norte: el poder de las comunidades religiosas
EP. 6 Una marea roja: el regreso de Trump y el futuro de los latinos
Tráiler: La Ruta del Sol
EP. 1 La botella
EP. 2 La grabación
EP. 3 La entrevista
EP. 4 Las pruebas
EP. 5 La necropsia
EP. 6 El debate
EP. 7 El conspirador
EP. 8 El contacto
EP. 9 El fiscal
EP. 10 El rompecabezas
Tráiler: Las Reinas de Queens
EP. 1 Santa, Madre, Reina
EP. 2 Bienvenides a la Casa Martínez
EP. 3 Las reinas del escenario
EP. 4 La Santa Puta
EP. 5 Un martes cualquiera en Queens
EP. 6 Tres reinas, dos disparos
EP. 7 Batalla por la Roosevelt

7 | The Battle for Roosevelt

Batalla por la Roosevelt

The following English translation was generated with the assistance of artificial intelligence and has been reviewed and edited by our team for accuracy and clarity.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Hello, a warning before we begin: this series contains sensitive content including violence, drugs, and sexual language. We recommend discretion. 

[Liaam Winslet]: Once I shout «Raúl,» everyone raises their signs.

[Elizabeth]: Ok. 

[Liaam Winslet]: What was the chant you were saying, Elizabeth?

[Elizabeth]: «Respect my pronoun.»

[Liaam Winslet]: «Respect my pronoun. Your transphobia kills us.»

[Elizabeth]: What if it goes on air?

[Liaam Winslet]: It doesn’t matter, we’re pissed off.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: One autumn morning in 2018, Liaam Winslet, Lorena Borjas’s right-hand woman and the current director of the TRANSgrediendo Collective — the same one who called Cecilia Gentili «Santa Cecilia, the mother of all whores»… 

[Liaam Winslet]: Please cross, keep walking, don’t let anyone stay behind!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Walks hurriedly through the center of Manhattan with about 15 of her friends, the most active and militant ones.

[Liaam Winslet]: So we will all sneak in together, no one’s left behind? 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Their mission? An ambush on the live broadcast of the number one entertainment show on Spanish-language television in the U.S.: El Gordo y la Flaca, which has been covering show business for more than 20 years.

[Women]: They have no idea what’s coming their way…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The girls found out that there would be a live broadcast of the show in Times Square featuring El Gordo, Raúl de Molina — a presenter with several television awards and an influential voice among Hispanics across the United States.

[Liaam Winslet]: Ok, this is Times Square. I want you to see that this is Times Square.

[Woman]: Liaam, the tourist guide!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: On one corner of the great plaza, they spot a circle of onlookers.

[Liaam Winslet]: No, he’s right here, he’s right here — run, run!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And in the center, surrounded by lights and cameras…

[Elizabeth]: Oh yes, there’s El Gordo.

[Liaam Winslet]: There he is, there he is.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: De Molina, «El Gordo.» Ready to go on air.

[Liaam Winslet]: They’re turning the lights on, they’re turning the lights on. Girls, we all get behind him — everyone behind him, behind him.

[Woman]: Behind him.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The girls begin to spread out around De Molina, hiding among the onlookers.

[Liaam Winslet]: Let him go live, let him go live. But start moving everyone to the other side, like you’re crossing the street…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In their hands they carry signs: some show the hosts’ images crossed out with a red circle; others display the colors of the trans flag — sky blue, pastel pink, white — and others read in black letters «no more trans deaths.»

They take their positions. And just as the host receives the cue signaling the end of commercials and the start of the broadcast, Liaam counts to herself…

[Liaam Winslet]: One, two… Trans Power!

[Women]: Trans Power!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The girls push their way through the crowd, which  watches them with curiosity. Meanwhile, they raise their signs and belt out their chants at the top of their lungs:

[Chicas]: We’re not intruders! We are trans women and we are furious!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Raúl de Molina is cornered. He looks confused, distressed. To buy time, he pauses his segment and the broadcast cuts to commercials. But Liaam and the girls are not going anywhere. What were they doing there?

In this episode, we follow the queens from Times Square to Roosevelt Avenue, to understand how today, more than ever, they must defend what others see as indefensible: being trans, being sex workers, and being migrants.

From Central Series and Radio Ambulante Studios, this is Las Reinas de Queens. I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz.

Episode 7. The Battle for Roosevelt.

In 2018, Angela Ponce became the first transgender woman to compete in the Miss Universe pageant. She did so representing her country, Spain.

And in New York, Liaam was discussing the news with her friends. Because some of them were saying that Ponce looked a little chubby, or that she wasn’t feminine enough.

[Liaam Winslet]: I would say, like, «let’s not focus on that. Let’s see that one of our own is there, representing everything we stand for»… Maybe I don’t look like her. Maybe she’s whiter or lighter than me, and I’m darker. But I feel proud that she’s there because she’s going to open the door for others who come along and want to be in that place or that space.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Meanwhile, far more powerful people were questioning Ponce’s presence in the coveted pageant.

[Audio de archivo, Lupita Jones]: I don’t agree because I don’t think this is a competition being held under fair conditions.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Lupita Jones, the first Mexican Miss Universe and the pageant’s representative in that country. A deeply respected voice across the region’s beauty circuits. Speaking about Ponce, she said — and I quote — that «a woman born a woman will never be the same as a transgender person.»

[Archival audio, Iztel Aidana Ávila Monreal]: Hello, how are you, good evening.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But what came next was a painful reminder of what was at stake for the trans community.

[Archival audio, Iztel Aidana Ávila Monreal]: I am a proud trans girl.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: This is the voice of Itzel Aidana Ávila Monreal, also Mexican. A few days after Lupita Jones’s comments, Itzel posted a nearly 7-minute video on Facebook. In it, Itzel speaks directly to the camera from a dark room. She strokes her long brown hair as she tries to gather her thoughts. And every word that comes out of her mouth comes from a very intimate place.

[Archival audio, Iztel Aidana Ávila Monreal]: I think it takes a great deal of courage. It takes a great deal of strength, a great deal of character to be able to become and be that person with whom you identify. Ms. Lupita Jones, I invite you. My name is Itzel Aidana Ávila Monreal and I am available to tell you my life story, and you will see that it has not been easy at all. But thanks to God, to God and to my parents and to the community that supports me day after day, I feel proud of who I am.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Shortly after uploading the video to the internet, Itzel took her own life.

And it was then that El Gordo y La Flaca picked up the story. On their show, they said that Itzel’s death was something terrible, that society should already be open to inclusion. They even added that their show was one of the first to hire a trans Latina person.

And then De Molina added that Lupita Jones had only shared her opinion, and that she could not be blamed for Itzel’s suicide.

[Archival audio, El Gordo y la Flaca, Raúl de Molina]: So, if this man or woman, whatever, whatever you want to call them, wanted to commit suicide, you can’t blame her because she had some problem that led her to take her life.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: «This man or woman, whatever you want to call them.» For Liaam, having someone with so much influence in the Latino community across the entire country refer to Itzel that way was the last straw. And so it was that, that morning in Times Square, she and her friends showed up unannounced on the El Gordo y la Flaca show.

When De Molina realized the girls were not going to stop protesting, he decided to give them a moment on the broadcast.

[Archival audio, El Gordo y la Flaca, Raúl de Molina]: We continue here from New York. As you saw before we went on a break, a group of transgender people who are here in New York came to protest, because they claim that what was said on the show a few days ago…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And he began to argue with one of the collective’s members, Elizabeth.

[Archival audio, El Gordo y la Flaca, Elizabeth]: El Gordo said, «that man or woman or whatever you want to call them» — for us, that…

[Archival audio, El Gordo y la Flaca, Raúl de Molina]: No, no, I never said man or woman or whatever you want to call…

[Archival audio, El Gordo y la Flaca, Elizabeth]: We have the video. We can accept that, put up with that, from people on the street, but from public figures, trained journalists…

[Archival audio, El Gordo y la Flaca, Raúl de Molina]: And I want to tell you something: I should have you removed from the show right now, and I had you brought over so you could give your opinion. I want to tell you something — if I said that, first, I apologize. Second, I didn’t say it…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: De Molina apologized, but immediately denied his comments. Meanwhile, Elizabeth held his gaze. She reminded him of the responsibility he carried as a public figure.

[Archival audio, El Gordo y la Flaca, Elizabeth]: You have to learn to address the community respectfully. We are no longer in the shadows — transgender women are now visible…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It’s not easy to hear, but Elizabeth insisted to De Molina: they had to learn to address the community respectfully because trans women have visibility. They are no longer in the shadows.

De Molina apologized again and denied his comments once more. Then he put the whole matter to rest and ended the broadcast.

The girls walked away from the square. Liaam, still full of adrenaline, kept talking.

[Liaam Winslet]: We are Latin immigrants and we will defend our rights to the end! We are survivors! Twenty-eight trans women  have been killed across the United States and nobody says anything! And New York is hypocritical, because it claims to do a lot for us, but does nothing! We always end up at the end of the line! We are that invisibilized and discriminated population! And we will not be silenced! And this is for everyone!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: On next Monday’s show,  De Molina and his co-host, «La Flaca,» Lili Estefan, reflected on their encounter with the girls from the Collective.

[Archival audio, El Gordo y la Flaca, Raúl de Molina]: It wasn’t until she told me I had to call them «señoras» that I realized I didn’t know whether to call them «señores» or «señoras.» Because now I do know I should call them «señora,» and I address them as «señoras» with great respect.

[Archival audio, El Gordo y la Flaca, Lili Estefan]: I think things can be discussed. And little by little, one can learn about what is currently happening in society.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Two prestigious, cisgender voices with an enormous platform acknowledged that they still had a lot to learn about the trans community.

The Collective’s ambush had worked.

But today, eight years later, the outlook is less promising.

[Archival audio, Donald Trump]: No matter how many surgeries you have or chemicals you inject, if you’re born with male DNA in every cell of your body, you can never become a woman. You’re not gonna be a woman.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Donald Trump has said on multiple occasions that, in his view, trans women will never be women. And across the country, his administration and various local and state governments are increasingly denying spaces to trans people. 

Educational spaces: nine states have banned LGBTQ+ topics from all school curricula. 

Sports spaces: local and state governments are enacting laws that prevent trans women from participating on sports teams. 

Healthcare spaces: twenty-seven states prohibit gender-affirming medical care for trans minors. 

Workplace spaces: the federal government is eliminating protections for LGBTQ+ workers.

[Liaam Winslet]: A reality is unfolding and that is that a government that is waging war on us for no reason. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Throughout this series we have insisted that the queens of Queens have been pushed into a cycle of vulnerability. Not only for being trans, but also for being immigrants and sex workers.

And we have seen women like Lorena Borjas and Cecilia Gentili fight for decades to break that cycle. In courtrooms, in theaters, in legislatures, even in churches and police stations.

But today, that struggle — increasingly urgent — is also being waged in what we might call the queens’ home: Roosevelt Avenue in Jackson Heights.

That’s where we head after the break.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’re back on Las Reinas de Queens.

[Archival audio from protest, Hiram Montserrate]: Good afternoon, everyone!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In early fall of 2025, several dozen people gathered on the corner of 90th Street and Roosevelt. They belong to a coalition called «Restore Roosevelt Avenue,» made up of neighbors, retired politicians, homemakers, and some religious representatives. Most of them are Latino.

[Archival audio from protest, Hiram Montserrate]: We all know the problems we are living through, don’t we? Don’t we?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: At that point, there were a few weeks left before the New York City mayoral elections.

[Archival audio from protest, Hiram Montserrate]: I say to Mr. Mamdani, who wants to be mayor, that you, sir, are wrong — that your platform to legalize prostitution is something evil…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Zohran Mamdani, the frontrunner candidate, had recently said he did not agree with arresting sex workers. And conservative groups interpreted Mamdani as supporting the legalization of sex work.

[Hiram Montserrate]: Well, I think I represent a platform of people who use common sense.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Hiram Monserrate is the coalition’s representative. He is 54 years old, was born in Manhattan, and his parents are from Puerto Rico.

[Hiram Montserrate]: I grew up in Queens, the great borough of Queens. And as we know, the borough of Queens is incredibly diverse. So we always had a connection with other Hispanic communities: Colombians, Dominicans, and Ecuadorians, in particular.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: He served in the New York City Police Department for 12 years. He then represented the Jackson Heights neighborhood, where Roosevelt Avenue is located, both on the city council and in the New York State Senate.

In 2010, he was sentenced for assaulting his partner. He said it was an accident, and the Senate expelled him. Two years later, it was discovered that he had used hundreds of thousands of dollars in public funds during his Senate campaign, and he was sentenced to two years in prison.

As of the publication date of this episode, he is once again a candidate for the New York State Senate with the Democratic Party. And he has publicly acknowledged his — and I quote — «mistakes made in the past.»

In other words, Monserrate is a seasoned politician who knows how to mobilize potential voters.

[Hiram Montserrate]: Dozens of people call me every day complaining about different things, looking for guidance. Right now I have practically become an activist.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And starting in 2024, that activism has focused on the issue of sex work on Roosevelt Avenue.

Now, before we continue, we need to make something clear: the women we have met in this series are not the only ones doing that work on Roosevelt Avenue. About three years ago, many other immigrant women began arriving in the area — mostly Latinas and Asians. They were doing sex work on the street and also in several unlicensed massage parlors along the avenue.

What Monserrate says is that, unlike in past decades, they were now doing it openly, night and day.

[Hiram Montserrate]: Now it has changed completely: from being something discreet, it is something out in the open.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Also near schools.

[Hiram Montserrate]: Children and parents, little children walking down the street in front of the women, and the women trying to bring some of the teenage boys inside — 13 and 14 year olds.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: So by 2024, a perception had already taken hold among several residents that Roosevelt Avenue was a lost space.

[Hiram Montserrate]: That was the opportunity for us to come together and establish that body, Restore Roosevelt Avenue. To try to push back and clean up our neighborhood a little.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And that «cleanup» began by marching down Roosevelt Avenue and protesting outside establishments where sex work was suspected to be taking place.

[Hiram Montserrate]: I understood the following: that behind these women, almost all of them, there is organized crime. Organized crime from Venezuelan, Mexican, Ecuadorian, and also Chinese gangs.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: This was one of the coalition’s main hypotheses: that in recent years, human trafficking networks and gangs, like Tren de Aragua, had brought women across the border, indebted, and then exploited them to pay off those debts.

We will look at this more closely later. For now, let’s stay with what Monserrate says:

[Hiram Montserrate]: Many of them are victims and should be seen as victims. But ironically, the only way to identify whether they are victims or not is through the judicial process. And for me it is a simple platform: the authorities must do their job and enforce the law.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And that — «enforcing the law» — began with having more police on the street.

[Hiram Montserrate]: One hundred percent. We cannot send a social worker to arrest a gang member.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: So they began pressuring the city government to do something. And they succeeded.

[Archival audio, Eric Adams]: That’s why we are here. And the manpower’s real: nine lieutenants, 42 sergeants, 176 police officers, and they took action today…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In October 2024, the then-mayor Eric Adams launched Operation Restore Roosevelt Avenue, with the mission of eradicating illegal brothels, street-level sex work, human trafficking, and the avenue’s unlicensed vendors. 

During the day, police focused on street vendors, and at night, undercover officers took to the streets to catch sex workers by surprise.

The operation lasted several months. Until, in June 2025, the Adams administration announced that they had arrested eight alleged gang members and 397 people on prostitution charges. But they did not specify whether those individuals were sex workers acting of their own free will or trafficking victims.

[Hiram Montserrate]: If they determine, through an investigation, that a given person is a victim, then that person should receive not only assistance but protection.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And these were the solutions the operation offered to detained sex workers: legal and psychological counseling. At its core, the idea was that they should earn their living some other way.

[Glennis Gómez]: You can be a nurse for the elderly. You can be a teacher. You can be a psychologist. You can work doing manicures as a stylist. So how is it that in 2025 a woman would want to prostitute herself when there are so many opportunities?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Glennis Gómez was born in the Dominican Republic. She is a Queens resident, mother of two children, and a member of the Coalition — which, incidentally, is made up mostly of members of the Democratic Party.

[Glennis Gómez]: I am a Democrat, but I consider myself a conservative, moderate Democrat.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We interviewed her a few meters from Roosevelt Avenue only a few days before the mayoral elections. And she spoke with such confidence about what she believes sex workers need that we asked her if she knew any.

[Glennis Gómez]: Yes, I’ve known many!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She told us it was through her church.

[Glennis Gómez]: We are the first ones to receive people with their… I’ll say, with their heaviest burdens. I have heard the testimonies of women who have had to be in these brothels against their will, because they were deceived, because they were sold a dream that wasn’t real. They come alone, they have no family here, so they would say: I need to eat. And maybe that’s the easiest… The easiest work they can find. I don’t like to say «work» because selling your body and prostituting yourself is not something I really consider work, no matter how much people say it’s the oldest profession. But no, it has never been a profession. It has simply been a way to subjugate women, to abuse women, and to use them. And then they have told me in their testimonies that they have had to sleep with 30, 70 men a day. Imagine that. It’s a business. It’s a cruel business.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And it was precisely for this reason that Glennis, Monserrate, and the Coalition could not tolerate a city where sex work was legal.

[Archival audio, Zohran Mamdani]: My fellow New Yorkers, today begins a new era…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: On January 1st of this year, Zohran Mamdani was sworn in as mayor of New York City.

Two months later, in March, he created the Office of LGBTQAI+ Affairs. To lead it, he appointed Taylor Brown, a trans woman and the first transgender person to head a mayoral agency. Her mandate is clear: to work to protect and strengthen New York’s status as a sanctuary city for the entire community.

But on the topic of sex work, as of the publication date of this episode, Mamdani has not advanced any public policy on the matter. In fact, what the Coalition had feared has not yet happened: prostitution remains codified as a crime throughout the state. For the simple reason that no mayor can change a state law just like that.

It is a long and cumbersome legislative process, full of political, legal, and moral debates — something particularly true in the case of sex work. So much so that the New York State Legislature has two bills under discussion.

The first has a name: «Cecilia’s Act,» because it was Cecilia Gentili — you know, Santa Cecilia, the mother of all whores — who championed and defended it before she died. It would fully decriminalize sex work, the consensual one, between adults, and not involving human trafficking. One of its sponsors was Zohran Mamdani, when he was a state assembly member.

The second bill has a longer name: the «Sex Trade Survivors Justice and Equality Act.» And its scope is far more limited: it seeks to decriminalize sex workers but not their clients. This approach is known as the Nordic model because it has been used in countries like Sweden, Iceland, and Norway.

But according to several sex worker organizations in New York, it is far from perfect. Because some studies have suggested that a client who fears going to jail becomes unpredictable, even violent. He may, for example, offer a sex worker less money; force her to forgo protection or to meet up at a dangerous location, while she has no negotiating power.

So there you have it: two rival bills around a complex, nuanced issue that has been stalled in New York legislative committees for years.

[Liaam Winslet]: I mean, we also have to understand that we need to listen to the community that is actually doing sex work on the street. We can’t just talk, to be liked or to supposedly fix a system that is completely broken, but, rather,  understand a little more of the reality that we sex workers live.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: After the break, we return to Roosevelt Avenue, this time alongside the sex workers.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Hello again. On January 3rd of this year, we met with Liaam at the Intercultural Collective TRANSgrediendo, in a basement below Roosevelt Avenue, just a few meters from where sex workers have walked for decades.

It was precisely for that reason that Lorena Borjas founded the Collective there in 2015.

[Liaam Winslet]: The only community center led by sex workers, by migrant people, by trans migrant women. And more than a center, we are like a space to feel free, united…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In addition to providing health services, food pantries, and legal support to the community, they have a space dedicated to sex workers in the area. Every year they receive around two hundred of them — all trans, Latina, immigrants.

[Liaam Winslet]: We talk about that, about strategies we can use when we’re doing street work, or when we’re in a hotel with a client, or when we receive clients at home.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In other words, they share information that protects them. We visited Liaam, who runs the Collective, because we wanted her to tell us what she had recently observed on Roosevelt Avenue and among the community. So we asked her about the Restore Roosevelt Avenue Coalition and how its members have portrayed sex workers — starting with the claim that they are a threat to the neighborhood’s children.

[Liaam Winslet]: There is no evidence whatsoever and there has been no report of a female sex worker having abused a minor, for example. That does not happen.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: For Liaam, the danger to children has been used as an excuse to discriminate against and criminalize sex workers. 

But perhaps the greatest driver of that criminalization is lumping sex workers together with gangs and human traffickers.

Let’s break it down. 

Although the Department of Justice has confirmed the presence in Queens of individuals who identify with the Tren de Aragua gang, Liaam told us that at the Collective they have found no evidence of gang members extorting or exploiting the girls.

[Liaam Winslet]: Look, we did our own research. We went out to the street when these comments were being made, and most of the girls were saying: «that’s not true, Liaam. I’m standing here because I want to work and because I have to pay my bills and because I have to send money to my family and because I am helping…» Some of them have sons, daughters.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: On the other hand, there is human trafficking. There is evidence that sex workers, including trans Latinas, have been victims of human traffickers in Queens — for decades. 

Lorena Borjas herself was one. So were Laura Martínez and Cecilia Gentili.

[Liaam Winslet]: If someone is living through a situation of human trafficking, we will be the first to say so, to go and report it and provide support. But if I decide to do sex work freely and voluntarily, that is my right. And I deserve to have my right respected. But I also deserve to have my rights guaranteed.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And rights are guaranteed through laws. But even a law like «Cecilia’s Act,» which would fully decriminalize sex work, would have flaws and problems. Because, according to Liaam…

[Liaam Winslet]: It is not the same to be a sex worker of color, to be Latina, to be an immigrant and work on the street, as it is to be a white woman who works behind the door of her apartment, where her clients probably pay her three times more than they pay me.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And so we arrive at the greatest concerns of Roosevelt Avenue’s sex workers.

First: trans clinics and organizations are no longer receiving enough condom donations from the government. There is a citywide shortage that puts the health of the community and their clients at risk.

Second: arrests for sex work in Queens are increasing. And not only that.

[Liaam Winslet]: Everything that is happening right now with the current government has activated this cruel side of the police, continuing to harass our trans women on the street.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Since Operation Restore Roosevelt Avenue in 2025, the police seem to have grown bolder. For example, they shine their lights on the women in the street until they move, and they mock them. There are even reports of police officers stripping them in public to search them and pressuring them to perform oral sex in exchange for not being arrested.

And of course, there is now the added fear of ICE, the immigration police. Let us remember that many of the queens are undocumented. As we said before, they are vulnerable on three counts: trans, sex workers, migrants.

That is why Liaam told us that since January 2025, when Donald Trump took office, the Collective has had a new security protocol.

[Liaam Winslet]: For example, all of the office doors are made of glass, transparent glass. We had to cover these doors with paper. We had to put signs on the doors to warn each other that doors must be kept closed at all times.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And if ICE ever shows up, they will shout «code red,» so that everyone shuts the door and stays inside.

[Liaam Winslet]: Maybe this will help us, maybe it won’t, but we genuinely want to make sure that no one in our community feels affected by the… For example, if you come to pick up a food pantry bag and suddenly ICE shows up and arrests you — how would we feel?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: For now, ICE’s presence in New York City has been reduced compared to other places like Minneapolis or Los Angeles. The city is protected by its sanctuary laws, which prevent local police from cooperating with immigration authorities.

But the fear among trans Latina sex workers on Roosevelt Avenue is tangible. Some have chosen to self-deport back to their home countries. Others do not want to go out on the street. Even working online is dangerous because undercover police operate there too.

[Liaam Winslet]: Oh, I don’t know, it makes me very sad. It really touches my heart, truly. When this government came in, seeing how they harass people… It’s sad. And it happens a lot within the community. It hurts me to see my friends, my community members, suffer because of that. It’s hard, because most of us have medical conditions, and if they deport us to our countries, it’s hard. It won’t be the same. I know — I have been an activist  for a long time and I know that there is, for example, in South America, in Ecuador, a severe shortage of medications. The community cannot access treatments and it’s difficult. Many people have fled because of violence, and that is a low blow because you think: what is going to happen to them, if they get deported?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: All of these battles have taken their toll on Liaam. She is no longer the same person from that morning in Times Square, shouting at the top of her lungs, fury right at the surface.

[Liaam Winslet]: I think that after Lorena’s death, things haven’t been the same for me. These last few years have been really hard because, well, keeping a space like this going costs a lot. I don’t mean financially. I mean in terms of your energy, you know? Your commitment. I often feel very worn down, honestly. I feel very, very exhausted. I can’t do everything alone. I can’t give myself out alone. I need to find someone or people to help me, because otherwise in the end I’m going to end up like Lorena.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Exhausted to the point of martyrdom. The same thing that happened to Cecilia Gentili — the same thing that turned her into a saint.

[Diego]: It’s a very sunny day. The sky is blue. There are one, two… There are four police cars accompanying the march.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In September 2025, Diego, our reporter, attended the eighth sex workers’ march of Queens.

[Woman]: This corner is mine — mine, mine, mine!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It is a protest that Lorena Borjas started in 2018 and that has been organized every year since on Roosevelt Avenue.

[Woman]: Whore yes, whore no — that’s for me to decide!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That day, Liaam was there, and so was Jessica Guamán, whom we met in the previous episode. And also Laura Martínez, the queen we met in episode 2. It was Laura — seeing that there were not as many people as in previous marches — who stepped up to give this speech.

[Laura]: It makes me sad that after eight years there are so few of us, because truly, year after year there should be more of us.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The purpose of the march is for neighbors and business owners to see, in broad daylight, the people who do sex work. To let them know that these women, beyond their work, also have the right to be in that space. But the dwindling attendance undermines the protest’s legitimacy.

[Laura]: We are whores and we should not be ashamed of our work, because if we ourselves are ashamed of it, then where are we headed? Who is going to believe us? How are we going to open the path for sex work to be seen, above all, as something normal by people? Truly. We need to unite. We need to support each other to grow. Because if we don’t, we are going to stay stuck!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura’s words echo through a community that has seen better days. Because, although Mayor Mamdani has committed to protecting New York’s LGBTQ+ population, the federal government’s battle against trans people continues.

There is also a palpable absence of Lorena Borjas and Cecilia Gentili — protective mothers who built bridges with political power in New York City and the state.

That is why staying still is not an option for the queens. Not when they are told repeatedly that they do not belong — for being trans, for being sex workers, for being migrants.

So they keep going out, again and again, to explain themselves. On television, in the streets, wherever it takes. But having to constantly explain yourself is exhausting. It’s like shouting at a wall.

In the next episode, guided by one of the most legendary queens, we will travel to a mythical place in New York’s nightlife where they did not have to justify themselves. A place now gone, but essential for understanding why the Queens — I assure you — are not going anywhere.

Las Reinas de Queens is a podcast from Central, the series channel of Radio Ambulante Studios, and is part of iHeart Radio’s My Cultura podcast network.

This series was produced by Diego Senior and Pablo Argüelles, with additional production and reporting by Nikol Pizarro, Joana Toro, Andrés Sanin, Sindy Nanclares, and Sofía Campero.

The editors were Daniel Alarcón, Silvia Viñas, and myself.

Fact-checking by Bruno Scelza and Nikol Pizarro.

María Linares handled sound design and mixing, as well as the original music.

The graphic design and art direction of the series are by Diego Corzo.

Product development for Las Reinas de Queens was handled by Natalia Ramírez. Digital production was done by Ana María Betancourt and Óscar Luna.

Business development and strategic partnerships were managed by Camilo Jiménez Santofimio. And Julián Santos and Eric Spiegelman provided legal support.

Las Reinas de Queens is an original idea by Diego Senior, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanin.

The executive producers are Diego Senior; and from Radio Ambulante Studios, Carolina Guerrero, our CEO.

At iHeart, the executive producers are Arlene Santana and Leo Gomez.

Part of the funding for this project was provided by the Greater Good Science Center at the University of California, Berkeley, as part of its «Spreading Love Through Media» initiative, with support from the John Templeton Foundation.

You can follow us on social media as centralseriesRA and subscribe to our email newsletter at centralpodcast.audio.

I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz. Thank you for listening.

6 | Three Queens, Two Shots

Tres reinas, dos disparos

The following English translation was generated with the assistance of artificial intelligence and has been reviewed and edited by our team for accuracy and clarity.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Hello, a warning before we begin: this series contains sensitive content including violence, drugs, and sexual language. We recommend discretion. 

Roosevelt Avenue. The main artery of the Jackson Heights neighborhood, in Queens. It’s a nearly straight, long avenue lined with low buildings, no more than two stories tall.

Above it run the elevated subway tracks. With their rattling and roar of steel, the trains on the 7 line set the pace  of life taking place below, on the street.

Roosevelt is a living inventory of immigrant life in Queens. Walking it is like getting lost in Quito, Caracas, Mexico City, Tegucigalpa, and Bogotá, all at once.

You have the clothing stores — «good, cute, and cheap»; the hair salons and shoe shops; the law offices: immigration lawyers, workers’ comp attorneys, tax preparers; and the international wire transfer banks and pawnshops. There are the street vendors: the ones selling weed, the ones selling corn arepas, encebollados, and birria.

And there are the more fragile traces of migrant life: small paper notices, taped to lampposts and fluttering in the wind: «woman shares room,» «rooms for rent, kids OK,» «woman looking for a responsible lady to share room rent.»

But when night falls, Roosevelt changes. The businesses close. Families head home. Restaurant lights dim, they become bars and clubs. The pulse of the music competes with the pulse of the train.

And the people who spent the day at home, resting, come out.

[Ale]: Well, I got all dressed up, you know? We were going to go dancing, have some fun.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: This is Ale, a Mexican trans woman. One night in May 2023, she went out to party on Roosevelt with her friend Jacqui.

[Jacqui]: «Get cute,» I told her, «because it’s Saturday and we’re going out so my friends can meet you.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Ale had just arrived in New York, and that night she wanted to celebrate.

[Ale]: We went into a club, we were there for a while dancing and drinking. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They spent the night at True Colors, one of the most well-known bars on Roosevelt. They were there until four or five in the morning. They left and, dawn was already beginning to break, when on the corner by the club, a man approached them. And he went straight for Ale.

[Jacqui]: He starts pulling her away and she tells me, «baby,» she says, «the man wants to be with me.» I said, «OK, girl.»

[Ale]: Well mostly, it’s just that, I wasn’t working. I was just hanging out. I mean, I was really just there to have fun — working wasn’t my plan for the night.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Ale and Jacqui are sex workers. We’ve changed their names to protect their identities. And even though Ale wasn’t in the mood that night, what did it matter to spend a quick moment with a client who was offering her money?

[Ale]: It seemed easy enough to say yes. And so we ended up right there, in a corner.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They stepped a few meters away into an alley. And the man began to touch Ale. And when he realized that Ale had a penis…

[Ale]: He got upset. I imagine that’s what happened, because that’s when he started insulting me, saying things, cursing me out.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The man demanded his money back: «My money, my money.» That’s about all she could understand.

[Ale]: I got scared. I was going to take out what he had offered me.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But the man grabbed her bag. Ale ran back to Jacqui.

[Jacqui]: She comes running. «Baby, the man took my bag.» I said, «no, pull it back,» I said, «and get over here.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The struggle continued.

[Jacqui]: But when I saw the guy yanking her bag, I saw him pull out a gun, and I scream at the girl, I said, «the man has a gun,» I said, «he’s going to kill us.»

[Ale]: And then I tried to pull my bag back and that’s when he shot me.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The shot hit Ale in the groin. Then the man fired again. He aimed at Ale’s stomach but missed. That second bullet nearly hit Jacqui and someone else who was nearby.

[Jacqui]: The second shot went right past me, by my ear — I heard it and it blew my hair back, pow.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Meanwhile, Ale was already on the ground, bleeding.

[Ale]: I just saw it like it was a dream — everything went red. I was really starting to see everything blurry, you know?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Lying on the sidewalk of Roosevelt, Ale’s dreams were beginning to slip away. All because she had come looking for refuge in New York.

From Central Series and Radio Ambulante Studios, this is Las Reinas de Queens. I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz.

Episode 6. Three Queens, Two Shots.

So, this is the story of two bullets that wove together the lives of three women: Jacqui, Jessica, and Ale.

Let’s start with Jacqui.

[Jacqui]: I’m Mexican, 100% from Guerrero, from Acapulco, actually — from the coast. I want to be the first trans female barber in the whole world, known internationally. If it’s possible to go beyond planets, that’s my dream.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Jacqui was successful in Acapulco. She had her barbershop, and a fruit shop too. But in 2021 she left for Tijuana, the border, to cross into the United States and apply for asylum.

[Jacqui]: I was fleeing mainly from the attacks by criminal organizations that run extortion rackets. Drug traffickers who, just because they see you cutting the hair of a rival cartel member, will come after you to kill you for that alone.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Jacqui was afraid. And that’s exactly why she couldn’t wait months at the border while her asylum claim was processed, the way most applicants have to. She needed to cross now. In Tijuana she went to a shelter for LGBTQ+ people, and they told her that if she was in that much of a hurry, the fastest way across was to run — through the lanes where the cars pass. And that the best time was Sunday nights at midnight, during the border guards’ shift change.

And so Sunday came. Jacqui did her makeup, put on jeans and a t-shirt. And as midnight struck she walked up toward the line. She pretended she’d stepped out of a car to grab a last-minute burrito before crossing into the United States. That’s what she told one of the guards:

[Jacqui]: «No, I’m so hungry, papi.» «Oh, well, burritos are right over there.» «Oh, thank you, papi.» «Oh, no…» But my heart was going boom boom boom.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She made it to the burrito stand. She was about twenty meters from the border. And when she saw the border guards get distracted…

[Jacqui]: Two, three. I take off running. Ta, ta, ta.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She takes off running to the other side of the line.

[Jacqui]: And when I saw I’d crossed that checkpoint I said, «well, I’m going to run just a little bit more,» I said, «just in case, I’m not quite there yet,» right? And once I crossed, I raised my hands. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She raised her hands and let drop the only thing she had brought with her, a folder with all the evidence she needed to apply for asylum in the United States: photos of physical attacks against her, extortion messages, psychiatric evaluations. A few seconds after crossing, the border agents caught up to her.

[Jacqui]: They handcuffed me. I said, «no, well, it’s all right there,» I said, «I’m here to ask for help.» I could barely breathe from all the running. And then they brought me an oxygen tank, a wheelchair…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The protocol was set in motion for Jacqui to apply for asylum. They took nail, hair, and saliva samples. They photographed her and took her fingerprints. And they asked her for an address in the United States — a requirement for applying for asylum. Jacqui gave them the information from a friend of hers who lived in the Bronx.

At that moment, everything felt unreal. Just a few years earlier she had been in prison, accused of assaulting a client while doing sex work. She’d spent 8 years locked up. And there, in her cell, she had often had a dream that now, flying toward New York, was coming true:

[Jacqui]: I always saw New York on TV. And one day there was a story about Jenni Rivera and Jennifer López — how they started out, how they made it, the Diva de la Banda, the queen of the Bronx. I was with my boyfriend because I had a boyfriend there. We were lying down and I said, «look, one day I’m going to be in New York too.» And I said, «I’m going to be the queen of Queens» — the queen of Queens, right?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: When Jacqui arrived in New York, her friend connected her with a lawyer and with a clinic called Betances Health Center.

There she received psychological support and HIV treatment. Jacqui is HIV-positive. And they also found her a place to sleep at a shelter for trans people. New York was truly a refuge. There, Jacqui was finding all the help she had never received in Mexico. And perhaps for the first time, she could think about her future without being afraid. She had big plans. First she wanted to sharpen her skills as a barber.

[Jacqui]: I consider myself an expert with scissors, with a straight razor, don’t even get me started, because in prison I started doing lines all by hand with a razor and nothing else, because inside there are no clippers, there’s nothing.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She dreamed of competing in the barber competitions held across the United States. And she also wanted to prove people wrong.

[Jacqui]: Like killing stereotypes: one, age — that there are mature people out there with real experience, quality, and passion. And the other: she’s a trans woman, and you’re not going to find her on a street corner or an escort page; you’re going to see her on barber pages, you’re going to see her in lifestyle pages.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But all these dreams came at a cost, especially in a city as expensive as New York. And even though Jacqui did have access to many services for trans people, she didn’t speak English. And very soon she discovered that transphobia existed in that city too.

[Jacqui]: So you go to ask for work and the moment they see you, even if the sign says «now hiring»: «oh no, the job isn’t available anymore.» Or, «call that number.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Not long after arriving at the trans shelter, Jacqui had barely $5 to her name. And she said to a friend she’d made there:

[Jacqui]: They say there’s a place called Roosevelt.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Roosevelt Avenue.

[Jacqui]: Let’s go check it out. And she said, «okay, let’s go.» And we went with those $5 to stand there. And that’s how we started. That night we made enough to eat. The next day we went back, and we just kept going to work.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: To do sex work. And even though Jacqui had been doing it since she was 14 in Mexico, going back to the street and putting up with all kinds of clients…

[Jacqui]: Do you think one feels like doing that? Do you think I enjoy it?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It’s never easy.

[Jacqui]: We, we trans women. I’m going to speak specifically about us. We lack affection. We lack empathy, and we lack people’s trust. That’s why the first thing we turn to is prostitution.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Jacqui knew sex work was illegal in New York. But she didn’t care.

[Jacqui]: My hunger was illegal too. I have to make money to feed myself.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: With that hunger, Jacqui stood on Roosevelt over the following weeks. Well dressed, made up, a forced smile on her face.

[Jacqui]: Because we’re tired of showing people our sad face. We’re tired of showing people that, that, that… That exhaustion. Prostitution isn’t what people make it out to be. Prostitution is the living hell you go through. How many of my friends have ended up dead in the middle of a street, in a hotel — dismembered, strangled? How many has this happened to inside a car? How many are in prison? It’s your word against a system that is also against you. The justice system, the police system. All of it is against you because you’re a prostitute.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The months went by. And Jacqui managed to settle down in New York. With each client, she could make between $150 and $200 dollars. She moved into an apartment. Then she found work at a barbershop.

And one day she got a call from the shelter where she had stayed in Tijuana. They asked if she could lend her New York address to other trans asylum seekers who were HIV-positive. And Jacqui said yes. She felt the obligation to help.

The girls started arriving from Tijuana. Some of them stayed with Jacqui. And they started calling her «mother.»

[Jacqui]: Because I gave them a roof, I gave them food, I gave them a place to sleep. I gave them all of that.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And among them was Ale, a friend of Jacqui’s. Years earlier, they had crossed paths as sex workers in Mexico City.

To celebrate her arrival in New York, they went out one night to Roosevelt. And that’s where Ale was shot. In the chaos that followed — Ale on the ground, bleeding, bystanders gathering, screaming — Jacqui started recording with her phone.

[Bystander]: They just shot at us.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In the video, there’s a police officer, trying to make sense of what happened.

[Bystander]: It just grazed me, but her — they got her…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And then Jacqui calls an ambulance.

[Jacqui]: Hey, ambulance…

[Officer]: It’s on the way…

[Jacqui]: I lost it. I mean, she lived at my place, can you imagine? I lost it and started screaming at everyone: please, someone help me call an ambulance, the police. While a guy helped me revive her, because I could see Ale was bleeding a lot.

[Officer]: Can you back up?

[Jacqui]: No, she’s my friend, she stays in my home.

[Officer]: Ok, the ambulance is right here.

[Jacqui]: I went into shock, shock, shock. Because we came fleeing from over there and then to get here to live the same thing…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In an instant, so many things she’d lived through in Mexico came flooding back: when she was kidnapped in Acapulco, when they pointed a machine gun at her.

[Jacqui]: They’re here for you. Easy, baby.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The ambulance arrived and they took Ale.

[Jacqui]: She went to the hospital, I wanted to get in the patrol car. They wouldn’t let me, they pushed me away. I said, «where are they taking her?» «I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know…»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: So Jacqui did the only thing she could: she started asking for help on social media and called every trans organization she’d come across since arriving in New York.

And like that, not knowing  what had happened to Ale, she went home.

[Jacqui]: I felt guilty about everything.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She couldn’t stop thinking: one, what she would tell Ale’s family.

[Jacqui]: Two, why did I take her out? Because she got shot. Three, why couldn’t I have taken her somewhere else?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She tried to sleep.

[Jacqui]: When I came out of my shock, it was around eight in the morning, nine in the morning, and Jessica called me.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And she — Jessica — had found Ale.

We’ll take a break and be right back.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’re back on Las Reinas de Queens.

Alright, two shots fired on Roosevelt Avenue, and three trans women bound together by that moment. We’ve already met the first one, Jacqui. Now it’s her turn:

[Jessica Guamán]: Well, my name is Jessica Guamán, I’m from Ecuador.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Jessica belongs to an indigenous community in southern Ecuador: the Cañari.

[Jessica Guamán]: Who are very Catholic. Obviously they were never going to accept me there.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She arrived in New York in 1995, at 14 years old. And soon she was already going to the bars on Roosevelt.

[Jessica Guamán]: When I walked into the club, I I said, «oh, there are so many people. So many gay guys kissing each other. Lesbians. So many beautiful trans girls.» I’d look at them and think, «ah, I want to be like her.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That’s when she began her transition.

[Jessica Guamán]: It was a beautiful experience, I can say that, because you really think, «oh my god, I’m taking hormones, my nipples are growing. My skin is changing. It feels different. My hair grows faster.» And all the changes you notice every day… I’m more feminine.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She went through the process slowly, to avoid criticism from her family and also out of caution. She didn’t want to draw too much attention at work. Until she decided to get breast implants. It was around 2002. Jessica was a waitress at a restaurant in Central Park. She knew she was good at her job, so when the time came to get the implants, she didn’t think anyone would have a problem with it.

[Jessica Guamán]: I thought they were going to accept me, you know? Because it didn’t make me less, or my breasts weren’t getting in the way, and I also don’t think it changed anything, me working there as a trans woman, right? Because I was still going to work, because I’ve always done that, right?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And yes, the owner told her she was a good waitress…

[Jessica Guamán]: But that I couldn’t work like that. Obviously, he was transphobic. So, well, he told me I was fired. And obviously, since I didn’t know my rights or any of that, I just said, «okay.» For six months I didn’t work. I already had my breast implants. Then a friend tells me, «you know what? Let’s go look for a job.» I applied to a lot of places. I had experience working in the kitchen and everything. But they never hired me, obviously, because I was now a trans woman. Nobody wanted to take me on. They always said they were going to call and they never called.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And that discrimination, and the lack of money, pushed her into sex work.

[Jessica Guamán]: I was inexperienced. Sometimes, for example, I didn’t know how to do the job. And at the end of the day, feeling dirty, or feeling like you had to do things you didn’t want to do — out of obligation or necessity — yeah, it’s really hard.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She started walking Roosevelt Avenue, like other Latin trans sex workers. Jessica remembers that back then, around 2007, she knew about 20 or 30 of them.

[Jessica Guamán]: There were very few of us Ecuadorians. We were really only about four. Most of the trans population was from Mexico, Honduras, and El Salvador.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Many of them had also run into transphobia when they arrived in the city, and that had pushed them onto the streets of Jackson Heights. But those streets were already occupied by women who had come much earlier: the Puerto Ricans.

[Jessica Guamán]: A lot of the Puerto Rican women would always tell us we didn’t have papers. I mean, back then, for example, they were the ones who treated us badly.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They mocked their appearances. Jessica says the Puerto Rican women did have papers. Puerto Rico is a U.S. territory. So they would call immigration to have the newcomers deported.

[Jessica Guamán]: We were the undocumented ones. We were the ones who weren’t supposed to be there. So there was always an attack. There were always fights among us.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But these territorial conflicts were nothing compared to the harassment from the police.

[Jessica Guamán]: The police never left us alone. The moment you were arrested, they already knew your legal name. They would shine flashlights, spotlights on us. «You know what? Alberto, Luis, Juan, go home.» Or they would humiliate us in the street.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The history between the Latin trans sex worker community and the NYPD, the New York City Police Department, is full of episodes of abuse. From calling the women by their deadnames — that is, their birth names — to detaining them, beating them, and sexually abusing them.

In such a hostile environment, Jessica and her friends looked out for each other in different ways. First, none of them would undercut the others.

[Jessica Guamán]: We had a rule that we all charge the same rate. So, for example, no one could charge less.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And when it came to the police, the first rule was to keep moving. Back then there was a law in New York aimed specifically at sex workers that prohibited them from standing still.

[Jessica Guamán]: Because if we stood on a corner, we obviously knew we were going to get hassled. So I think all of us — all of us — knew we had to keep moving.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Moving through the street with their eyes wide open in case there was a patrol car. And to communicate with each other…

[Jessica Guamán]: [Whistle]

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They would whistle to each other.

[Jessica Guamán]: For example, we already knew that if someone whistled three times, there was a problem. And if it was just once, we had to leave. So obviously everyone would pass it along, right? And we’d all go. «No, the police are here. Let’s go.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: When a client approached, they couldn’t let their guard down either, because it could always be an undercover cop. So they’d size the person up carefully: their clothes, their eyes, their words. And one of the first things they’d do was try to touch the client, for the simple reason that an officer couldn’t allow himself to be touched while on duty.

Another rule: if they were arrested, the best thing was not to resist, because in court that could be used against them.

Jessica worked like this for nearly five years. At first on the street, and over time from home. She advertised in newspapers and on websites: «sexy trans girl, new in the neighborhood.» It was more comfortable and safer than going out.

And so, one night in 2010, a client called. He wanted to see her.

[Jessica Guamán]: So I was already waiting. He came, came in. He didn’t let himself be touched. And then over the radio he said, «it’s on the third floor.» At first I thought he was a robber, right? So then when seven police officers walked in, I thought, «oh!»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It all happened in seconds. One of them threw her to the ground.

[Jessica Guamán]: He pushed my head into the floor four times. So, of course, my lip got split open.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They handcuffed her hands and feet and took her to jail, to the men’s section.

[Jessica Guamán]: Well, imagine. I had my implants, my long hair. And a row of cots, in one big room…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She spent four days cut off from the world, thinking she could be deported at any moment. Meanwhile, her family couldn’t find her. They were searching under her name, Jessica, but in jail she was registered under her deadname. Until they finally found her. And her partner managed to pay her bail, around $700.

[Jessica Guamán]: Then the trial began. With terrible charges against me. Obviously that I had attacked them, that I had broken their phone, that I had resisted arrest.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Something that, let’s remember, Jessica and the other women knew they should never do. The trial lasted six months. With help from an organization called Make The Road, which provides legal support to migrants, Jessica managed to be acquitted of almost all the charges, including prostitution. She was only sentenced for «disorderly conduct,» and had to complete 72 hours of community service.

But, in turn, she decided to sue the city of New York and the officers who arrested her.

[Jessica Guamán]: I sued them for the violence I experienced. Then they started trying to mediate, asking if I wanted money. I said no. «I don’t want money,» I said, «because nothing — nothing makes up,» I said, «for the suffering I went through.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: There was a second trial. In the courtroom were Jessica and all the officers who had detained her that night, including the one who threw her to the ground and beat her. The judge began to examine the NYPD’s claims that Jessica had attacked them.

[Jessica Guamán]: «Ok, she attacked you. Were you hurt? Bring me the medical record. Where is it?» «Well. I didn’t go to the hospital.» «Ok. Leave the room.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: He questioned them one by one. It was clear there was no evidence against Jessica.

[Jessica Guamán]: And that’s it, that’s how I was acquitted of everything.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But after going through two lengthy trials, Jessica was exhausted.

[Jessica Guamán]: That’s when my life changes, when I start to see the reality of what we live through, we trans women; how hard it was for all sex workers to endure the police’s persecution.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Jessica left sex work and turned her life toward her community. Around 2009 she began volunteering for Make The Road, the organization that had supported her through the trials. Then in 2012 she started working at Betances Health Center, the clinic that supports trans people with HIV. And in 2018 Jessica founded Hope TGNC Latinx, an organization that helps newly arrived Latin trans people in New York.

[Jessica Guamán]: We have brought… We have helped many sisters who were in Texas, in Arizona, living on the streets.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And she has connected them with various services and supported them in legally changing their names and continuing their transition processes.

All of this has led many of those people to call her mother, and a family has formed around her. Jessica has a WhatsApp group chat with more than 350 trans people in New York. And it was in that chat that, one early morning in 2023, a piece of news began to circulate: a trans girl had been shot on Roosevelt. Ale.

[Jessica Guamán]: It was very hard, because a lot of the girls saw it.  They were all calling me: «what happened, Jessica?»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Speculation about why Ale had been shot spread quickly.

[Jessica Guamán]: Was it because she was feisty, or what could she have been doing..

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Jessica started calling the hospitals near Roosevelt. But she didn’t have Ale’s legal name. She decided the best thing would be to go to each one in person and ask if there was a trans girl there with gunshot wounds. First she went to Elmhurst Hospital, the closest one to her home and just a couple of blocks from where Ale was attacked. She walked into the emergency room and said she was a worker from Betances Health Center.

[Jessica Guamán]: I said, «I’m from Betances. We have a patient who was shot this morning and I need information.» So they started checking and said that yes, there was a gunshot victim, and asked me, «what was her name?» I didn’t know her first or last name. Then, when they let me through, I could see it was a trans girl.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It was Ale. She was lying down, conscious, with a look of deep pain on her face. But when she saw Jessica, she smiled.

After the break, her story.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Hello again. I think it’s time we really get to know Ale. She told us her story in scattered fragments, across several interviews over the course of a few months.

[Ale]: I’m a girl from Guerrero. From Tijuana they helped me cross over here…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The first time we met her was at Betances Health Center, the community clinic where Jessica works. She helped her get health insurance to cover the emergency room costs. And at Betances she received full medical and psychological support in the days following the attack.

A few weeks had passed. Ale still looked fragile. She told us almost right away that she had already been a sex worker back in Mexico.

[Ale]: Because they don’t offer us any other kind of work. They don’t let us be free.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But from the start she made two things clear. First:

[Ale]: Honestly, prostitution, for me, is not something shameful. On the contrary, it fills me with… We are strong women, because not just anyone can face that world.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And second:

[Ale]: I really love painting. I’ve been painting since I was little.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Ale arrived in the United States seeking asylum. First she went to Atlanta, in the state of Georgia, because a niece of hers lived there — also trans.

[Ale]: But in Atlanta there are really no opportunities for us. All the girls I met there told me the laws there are very transphobic.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: As if that weren’t enough, five months after Ale arrived in Atlanta, a piece of news shook the city’s trans community: two sex workers had been murdered. Around that time, a lawyer told her she’d be better off applying for asylum in New York, a sanctuary city. And so she did.

She arrived in New York, stayed with Jacqui… And just days later, she was attacked on Roosevelt Avenue. It was the worst possible welcome.

But even so, the first time we saw her she didn’t seem to want to leave.

[Ale]: Honestly, it’s wonderful. I don’t know — being here. It’s like another life, another world. And with everything they’ve given me, the support they’ve shown me, I really have felt very loved.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We saw Ale a second time, a month after the attack. She told us more about her life in Guerrero. She comes from an indigenous family. She had 10 siblings. And even though they were poor, Ale remembers being happy.

[Ale]: I used to draw in the dirt because back then there was no money for a notebook or anything like that.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She drew the sea, ships, birds… Sometimes her mother would hit her and tell her to act like a man. But Ale never hid who she was.

[Ale]: I never hid inside a shell. In that sense I was always brave, because even though they hit me and all of that, I didn’t care. I kept on being myself. Until one day I just couldn’t take it anymore.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She fled her hometown at 13. She ended up in Chilpancingo, the capital of Guerrero, where she cleaned bathrooms at a cantina, and then moved to Mexico City. That’s where she met Jacqui, doing sex work. Sometimes she’d go back to her hometown but she could never last long there. And that wandering life brought her all the way to New York.

[Ale]: It’s a lot of transition, honestly. Right now it’s really hard, going from one place to another and not having — like, not being settled… I feel kind of lost right now, I don’t know. Hopefully, I don’t know, maybe my life will take root somewhere, right? Like my shoes will finally stop walking, because honestly I’m tired too.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The third time we saw her was three months after the attack. Sometimes the fear would wash over her — that the man who attacked her would find her again and kill her. With Jessica’s help, she was receiving psychological treatment.

[Ale]: I really do need it quite a bit, because I have been feeling a little off in my head. I don’t know. I’ve been a little sad. Sometimes I cry. Sometimes I feel like screaming. And honestly, sometimes now… Like, I was scared to go out on the street much, even during the day. I don’t know. I kind of want to shut myself in here, stay locked away. I have honestly thought about going back to my country, right? That too. And at the same time, no. But that’s where I am right now — at a kind of crossroads. Whatever has to happen will happen. I mean, it doesn’t worry me as much anymore — whether I go or stay. I don’t know. I really just don’t care anymore.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But despite everything, she knew that in New York she had found a community that had given her legal, medical, and psychological support…

[Ale]: In my country there’s no help like that. None of it. And here, well, there are various groups where you can meet up, talk about your things… Where you can find something like sisterhood.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Our last interview was five months after the attack.

[Ale]: Winter is coming now, it’s getting really cold. You have to pull out the warmest coats, or buy them, because you know how it is…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Ale had moved to the Bronx and sounded much better. She opened up more with us. She had gone back to doing sex work on the street.

[Ale]: During the day I have to rest. I have to rest a lot before going out, get myself mentally ready, but also be strong; kind of clear my head. Sometimes I have a little tequila, right? To work up the courage and head out. To get to it.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But beyond the work on the street, Ale was also returning to her true passion: painting. She told us Jessica had invited her to make a piece for a group exhibition, in commemoration of the trans community members who had died from HIV-related complications.

She showed us the painting. It was small. On a beach full of palm trees stood a figure, without a mouth. She told us it represented her earlier life, in Acapulco. And her brother, who died from HIV.

At the end of the interview we asked her how she imagined her future now. And she told Diego, our reporter:

[Ale]: Well, I’ll tell you: with lots of children. With lots of children, married to a lumberjack. But no, no. Let’s try again… Okay, my future, I imagine it… Being a great artist, having lots of art exhibitions, having a separate job. If it’s possible, being in a loving relationship. Having a permanent home, not wandering back and forth. And having good health, more than anything.

[Diego]: Dear Jessica, we’re here with music in the background today on a very important day. What day is it, what are we doing today? What’s happening?

[Jessica]: Well, today, December 1st, is International Day Against HIV/AIDS, and also…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In December 2023, Diego attended the group exhibition we mentioned earlier. There he found Jessica, wearing a light blue sequined dress. And he asked her about Ale’s painting.

[Diego]: You’ve been there from day one. What have you seen? What has she told you? And is it a real process, seeing her painting exhibited here today in front of everyone?

[Jessica]: It absolutely is. It really is something so big, right? Because when we immigrate, we start from scratch. And I’m truly happy that she is part of us, and that now she’s also showing her painting here at our event.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Then Diego found Ale, and finally she looked radiant.

[Ale]: Everyone has art in them. Everyone knows how to make art. You just have to pull it out from your heart, and that the  eyes… You can see it with your eyes and paint it with your hands, and that’s all.

[Diego]: You’ve been living in New York for a while now. It’s been a strange experience: ups and downs, changes. How has it been, and now seeing your art exhibited here?

[Ale]: Well, living in New York for me has honestly been up one moment, down the next. Everything that’s happened to me feels like a movie. I feel like the main character of my own film, because I’ve really lived it so fast in the time I’ve been here. Good things have happened to me. Really good things. Bad things too. But here we are, alive, and that’s what matters.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The attack Ale suffered on Roosevelt was an extreme case of the dangers trans sex workers face in Queens: robberies, beatings, assaults, and territorial conflicts. These are the things that can most often happen to them during their working hours. All while others debate the future of that work from desks, homes, and podiums.

On the next episode…

[Monserrate]: No one should think that the only work they can do is sex work.

[Protesters]: We’re not intruders. We are trans women and we are furious!

[Liaam]: But the problem isn’t the sex workers. The problem is the inequality that exists in a city that tells you, «yes, we are here to protect all New Yorkers.» But, what about us? Are sex workers not part of that plan? Or are we simply the problem you’re trying to eradicate? Do you forget that we also have rights?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Las Reinas de Queens is a podcast from Central, the series channel of Radio Ambulante Studios, and is part of the My Cultura podcast network on iHeart Radio.

This series was produced by Diego Senior and Pablo Argüelles, with additional production and reporting by Nikol Pizarro, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanín.

The editors were Daniel Alarcón, Silvia Viñas, and myself.

Fact-checking by Bruno Scelza and Nikol Pizarro.

María Linares handled sound design and mixing, as well as the original music.

The graphics and art direction for the series are by Diego Corzo.

Product development for Las Reinas de Queens was led by Natalia Ramírez. Digital production by Ana María Betancourt and Óscar Luna.

Business development and strategic partnerships were led by Camilo Jiménez Santofimio. And Julián Santos and Eric Spiegelman provided legal support.

Las Reinas de Queens is an original idea by Diego Senior, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanín.

Executive producers are Diego Senior, and from Radio Ambulante Studios, Carolina Guerrero, our CEO.

At iHeart, the executive producers are Arlene Santana and Leo Gomez.

Part of the funding for this project was provided by the Greater Good Science Center at the University of California, Berkeley, as part of its «Spreading Love Through the Media» initiative, with support from the John Templeton Foundation.

You can follow us on social media as centralseriesRA and subscribe to our newsletter at centralpodcast.audio.

I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz. Thank you for listening.

5 | An Ordinary Tuesday in Queens

Un martes cualquiera en Queens

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Hello, a warning before we begin: this series contains sensitive content including violence, drugs, and sexual language. We recommend discretion.

After the funeral of Cecilia Gentili at Saint Patrick’s Cathedral; after the Archdiocese of New York said the event was an insult to the Catholic faith and that the audience’s behavior was «scandalous»; after a «reparation mass» was held… On a rainy day in February 2024, the whores returned to Saint Patrick’s to protest. But this time, the doors weren’t opened for them.

[Liaam Winslet]: We are not going to stay silent, and even if it’s hard, even if they try to silence us, we will not back down. This is the moment to make history, my friends. Sex workers deserve the same rights. Sex work…!

[Protesters]: …Is work!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The one speaking and shouting is Liaam Winslet, director of the Intercultural Collective Transgrediendo. We’ve met her before. She was Lorena Borjas’s right hand and the one who called Cecilia «Saint Cecilia, mother of all whores.» Liaam led the protest in front of Saint Patrick’s.

[Liaam Winslet]: I, as a community leader, see every day how a hypocritical and moralistic society is scandalized by the word «whore.» But the word «whore» means powerful, unique, transcendent, and authentic. That is how we sex workers define ourselves.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But, as so often happens in New York, the scandal came and went. The echo of the voices that shouted «Cecilia, Cecilia, Cecilia» that day at the funeral dissolved into the hum of the city.

But if we turn our backs to Saint Patrick’s and walk a few blocks towards southeast Manhattan, we’ll reach Grand Central, the station where several subway lines converge: the S, the 4, the 5, the 6, and the 7. If we get on a train on this line toward Queens, we’ll reach the second-to-last stop, Mets–Willets Point. There, in Flushing Meadows Corona Park, near the Mets baseball stadium and the US Open tennis courts, we’ll find the Queens Museum.

There, on Tuesday, April 7th of this year, we gathered with the community of trans Latina sex workers from Queens to celebrate the launch of the series we are listening to. And to honor their legacy.

That is why, in this special episode marking the halfway point of Las Reinas de Queens, we want to share with you what we experienced that night in front of more than 100 people.

We will hear from Liaam, heir to Lorena Borjas’s collective; from Cecilia Gentili’s children who continue to expand the theatrical legacy of this queen. Also, a new story about Cecilia, and a speech from the mother of a house that continues to thrive despite the decades.

We will hear, in short, a celebration at the living heart of our kingdom.

From Central Series and Radio Ambulante Studios, this is Las Reinas de Queens. I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz.

Episode 5. Another Tuesday in Queens.

[Rula, live]: And now I’d like to invite to the stage…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We began that evening by talking with Liaam, director of the Intercultural Collective Transgrediendo, founded by Lorena Borjas.

[Rula, live]: Welcome, Liaam. Thank you so much for being here. We are very, very happy to have you here, and to have another space where we can chat for a bit. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We had just heard the trailer for this series, where Lorena is heard saying this:

[Lorena Borjas]: I’m going to get wherever I need to get to like a bitch — fight with claws and nails…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: So we started there.

[Rula, live]: What do you feel when you hear Lorena say these iconic words of hers? «I’m going to fight like a bitch.»

[Liaam Winslet]: Well, that we’re all bitches. No, I think one of the things that causes me a lot of nostalgia, really… Talking about Lorena is hard for me, it’s still hard for the community, truly, because you ask yourself, like, why does it keep happening to us — to women and trans people and sex workers — that we lose our sisters? On top of the loss of another friend like Cecilia, right? These are things where you say, like, why one thing after another, why do we keep losing people from our movement? But it also leads us to a reflection, right? As a community, to understand that this is the moment to know that resistance depends on all of us — trans people, queer people, non-binary people. To value more the struggle of those who paved that way, right?

[Rula, live]: Speaking of that, I’d like to know — beyond the work done with the Collective and with the collectives and forms of activism that Cecilia and Lorena started — in what other ways can we keep their legacy alive?

[Liaam Winslet]: By supporting those who are paving the way, right? It makes me very happy to know when, for example, a trans woman is at a spot that for years we were told trans women couldn’t occupy, right? It has made me very happy to see how many friends from our community who have been and are sex workers have evolved. Many of us. And knowing that they are in those places to raise their voices for us also allows us to have an impact on those others who have always believed they won’t be able to achieve what they’ve been told: you can’t do this, you can’t accomplish that. Many times people told me, «trans women and immigrant sex workers will never be able to lead an organization.» And when someone tells you that, it’s harsh, because that’s when you say, «but why wouldn’t I be able to?» Why? Maybe because I don’t have a college degree, maybe because people don’t understand that trans women don’t drop out because they want to, but because doors are closed to them. Keeping Lorena’s legacy alive is not only about fighting against the system, it’s also about fighting against all those people who always told us we’re not capable. And it has been hard. It has been very hard. Just as I have known stories of trans friends, for example, who have been removed, who have been… How do I put it? Fired from a job, simply because maybe the project ended, maybe you don’t meet our expectations, or maybe we just put you there so people can see we have a trans person here. But that is not the goal; it’s about maintaining and providing opportunities to the community because they deserve it, because it’s a right. But it doesn’t always happen. Sometimes we have to beg after having survived so many difficult situations.

[Rula, live]: Is there any advice that Lorena gave you at some point that you carry with you today?

[Liaam Winslet]: I never forgot when Lorena wrote to us and said something like, «pájara, I don’t know what’s going to happen. These girls are going to be left alone. We’re going to have to figure out how to help them.» I’ll never forget the image from the call I had with her when she was in the hospital, and she was saying, «we have to figure out how to help the girls and find food and do…» And I was like, «Lorena, first recover fully and then we’ll figure out what to do.» But I never thought it would be the last call. But there are endless things I still remember about her. Sometimes I watch a lot of her documentaries and the things she says. Sometimes I listen to her voice messages. I still have her voice messages — WhatsApp messages, text messages. So I listen to them. It’s like… It’s like this moment to, I don’t know, connect with her too.

[Rula, live]: And… because you were also close to Ceci, in one way or another, being activists and everything. But for the people who didn’t get to know her, who didn’t get to know Cecilia personally — can you tell us a little about Cecilia Gentili?

[Liaam Winslet]: Look, Cecilia was a perfect complement. This was like a gang, honestly. The whores’ gang, truly. And I remember when I joined Lorena and Cecilia’s gang, it was exciting. I remember that when… In 2014, when we started talking about wanting to create an organization for the immigrant community in Jackson Heights, in Queens, to be led by Lorena, it was something unthinkable. But when we talked about it with Cecilia, Cecilia was like, «no, yes you can, let’s do it.» And Lorena and I were like, «ah, yes, let’s do it, we have to write…» Cecilia always told us: «take note of everything, make copies of everything, don’t just leave things like that because later we have to review all that happens.» And so it was that in 2015 the Collective was established. Cecilia was one of our driving forces along with Lorena so that we could maintain this space, right? Lorena’s dream was to have a space, a community center like the one we have now — but she never got to see it — because she always used to say, «imagine having a space like this. Imagine the girls coming to get food.» I mean, these were things that trans experience and most of us as immigrants live through, right? We know how hard it is to access food. We know how hard it is to not have a safe space. Many trans women still have to be out on the streets during the day because they don’t know where to go. There are no safe places, where they can provide you with that space, where you can go and talk and meet other trans people who maybe have the same stories. So the Collective has become that — a space that began as a dream with Lorena, Cecilia, who helped us so much. I remember so well that after her death, well, everything was going to just stop there, and Cecilia was the one who told us: «no, we’re going to keep going. We’re going to keep going. We have to keep doing it. Let’s keep alive the legacy of this old whore, Lorena.» And that was it. That is how we keep this legacy alive.

[Rula, live]: What was it like going out with Lorena? And I don’t know if Cecilia would join you at night when you went to hand out condoms and visit the girls to check in on them. 

[Liaam Winslet]: Going out with Lorena meant helping her carry her car. Who here that knew Lorena ever lifted Lorena’s car? That was her office. I used to tell her, «Lorena, that’s a desk, a filing cabinet.» It was everything. But walking with Lorena in the street and distributing condoms was an adventure. It was a story where time… You’d look at the time and it was already four or five in the morning, and you’d say, «we’re still out here,» because Lorena would take you along for the ride, right? And it was exciting because she always looked for ways to connect us with the community, but also so that others out there would know we were there for them, that they would feel accompanied, right? I remember that Lorena was one of the driving forces behind getting organizations to go out to the streets to do HIV testing, because for many of our sisters it felt complicated and difficult… One of her phrases was: «Liaam, they have to understand that for whores, day is night and night is day. So you can’t expect a comrade to go get an HIV test between  9am and 5pm. It’s impossible, she’s never going to go.» So what Lorena did was exactly that — bring the syringes to where they already were, bring the HIV tests, connect the girls to set a clear date to go to their hormone treatment or see the doctor.

[Rula, live]: Is there any memory that stays with you, something specific about Lorena and Ceci, something that comes to mind right now?

[Liaam Winslet]: That you must not give up. That despite the circumstances and adversities, we have to stay alive. And for me that is also important: seeing new generations, seeing new sisters, because at some point I was there too. At some point I also fought, but there comes a moment when you say, «we have to make room, we have to allow… We have to let them also face the battles we are still seeing.» I mean, there are many situations that still keep us here, resisting and showing resilience in the face of all these difficult situations.

[Rula, live]: How beautiful. Thank you so much, Liaam. A big round of applause for Liaam Winslet, please!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’ll be right back.

[Viento]: Good evening everyone. I am Viento.

[Oscar]: My name is Oscar, Cecilia’s daughter, and we are here to share a little about her, about her legacy…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: After the conversation with Liaam, it was time to hear from two people we met in the previous episode: Oscar and Viento, Cecilia Gentili’s children. She is Oscar.

[Oscar]: Cecilia was a matriarch and architect of a constellation of much love, support, and resistance.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They remembered her beyond her activism and beyond being Saint Cecilia, the mother of all whores.

[Oscar]: And she would want people to remember that she was very sexy. Very sexy. And to recognize her not only as this concept, this idea. She was very human, complicated.

[Viento]: Funny. Yes, very funny. I feel like she also used humor a lot to get through everything that happens to us, right?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And they introduced another of Cecilia’s children and an incredibly talented artist who in recent years has been in charge of keeping her legacy alive in theater: Chiquitita.

[Oscar]: Chiquitita was born and raised in Queens.

[Viento]: She is an incredible artist. And we leave the stage here for her to come and dazzle you. Thank you very much. Good night.

[Oscar]: Good night.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And she, Chiquitita, presented us with a fragment of the play «Red Ink.»  

[Chiquitita]: I am an atheist, but I have received calls from God many, many times…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: «Red Ink» was written in English, and Chiquitita’s performance was in that language. But we thought it would be nice to use this space to get to know Cecilia better, during one of her darkest times.

To tell this story, here’s our producer Pablo.

[Pablo Argüelles]: I visited Estrellita because I was told she had a letter from Cecilia Gentili. And I wanted her to read it to me.

Estrellita and Cecilia were friends for many years — the kind of friends who have been through the good times and the bad. Who built and broke their relationship several times since they met in Miami in 1999.

When I asked Estrellita if she had the letter she said yes, of course. But that she didn’t know where it was. All of this with a smile. Half anxious, half mischievous. The thing is, Estrellita has a thousand diaries and notebooks and photos and videos from her past. And she started rummaging through all of them in search of the letter.

[Estrellita]: How lovely souvenirs are, right? They show so much history. Don’t you think?

[Pablo Argüelles]: She is a collector of memories.

[Estrellita]: Look at this…

[Pablo Argüelles]: What is it?

[Estrellita]: It’s one of the flyers from the show «Red Ink.» Look how beautiful.

[Pablo Argüelles]: But the letter wasn’t turning up…

[Estrellita]: I’ll find it, I swear, I’ll find it for you…

[Pablo Argüelles]: While she searched, Estrellita told me about her life. She’s from Buenos Aires. Today she lives on the 15th floor of an apartment building in Queens. In the living room of her apartment there is a small table with the image of the Virgin Mary, creams, perfumes, paper towels, and condoms, for her clients. Because since the early 1990s she has been a sex worker and drag queen.

[Estrellita]: I took the stage drag queen to Palermo, to work from 11 pm until 6 in the morning.

[Pablo Argüelles]: Palermo is a Buenos Aires neighborhood full of bars and clubs. Estrellita made her life there, dressed as a woman, receiving her clients on the streets, in cars, on the train tracks, wherever.

[Estrellita]: You have to be courageous. You have to feel confident. And you have to like it.

[Pablo Argüelles]: And in 1998, with the money she earned on the streets of Buenos Aires she bought herself a plane ticket to Miami. She wanted — and she told me this before we started recording — a loud life, full of scandal, lots of drag queens, lots of shows and stiletto heels and wigs.

And of course, she continued with sex work, always on the street. Not like some of her friends who would only stand in bars, well dressed, drinking champagne.

[Estrellita]: Ah, and the glamour, and the perfume, and the earrings, and the dress. Look. Look at the dress: $200 dollars. Sequins and glitter. Oh, let someone buy you a drink. Not me. I walked around. And well, really completely, a whore. Super super slutty. Tight skirts. High heels. Well shaved, all, all, all over. Heels, but really high heels. Lots of wigs, lots of makeup, my keys, a little purse with condoms and everything, and that’s it.

[Pablo Argüelles]: And it was there, on the streets of Miami, that she met Cecilia, who had just arrived from Argentina.

[Estrellita]: And it was super funny because before even saying hello, I said to her, «and do you also go around like this looking for little clients every now and then?» «Of course, obviously, absolutely.» «So be careful,» I tell her, «because I got arrested three days ago.» And she says, «oh, really?» «Yes.» And she gets arrested four or five days later, and she runs into me again somewhere, and says, «you bitch, what bad luck you brought me. I got arrested too, you faggot.» «Oh! Welcome to Miami!»

[Pablo Argüelles]: They started hanging out with a little group of Argentine trans and drag girls united by the night. And one day, just as they had met, they fell apart, each taking her own path.

Estrellita moved to New York. And there, in the early 2000s, she reconnected with Cecilia. But Cecilia was no longer the newly arrived immigrant. She was doing very well. She had an apartment in Nolita, a very expensive and fashionable neighborhood in Manhattan. She also wore luxury clothes. And she met many of her clients at private parties. Estrellita would see her there frequently.

[Estrellita]: The parties were super fabulous with girls who had incredible bodies and these dolls, all fabulously dressed: Louis Vuitton, one in Chanel, another in Prada, another in Versace. And full of men, full of admirers. And those men would spend the whole night there. One drink, $25 dollars. They’d buy you a drink. Then you could go into a little booth, a tiny little box with a small curtain. And there you would show them your things, your tricks of the trade. In one night you’d leave with an average of $4,000, $6,000, $7,000 dollars. In one night!

[Pablo Argüelles]: But of course, that lifestyle had a price.

[Estrellita]: Each of us had our tricks to feel better or maybe to accompany a client. 

[Pablo Argüelles]: Tricks like using substances: alcohol, in Estrellita’s case…

[Estrellita]: Expensive wines, reds and whites and sparkling. I’ve always been so refined, totally refined. I’d rather be dead than be uncouth, right?

[Pablo Argüelles]: And Cecilia, heroin and cocaine. She entered that labyrinth we mentioned in the previous episode, and in which she began to lose everything: her income, her apartment in Manhattan, her health, her friends… So much so that she would go off radar frequently. Until one day, around 2009, she called Estrellita.

[Estrellita]: «Estrellita, I’m doing really badly and I have nowhere to sleep. And I’m very worried. Could you give me a few days to stay with you?» I said, «yes, of course, come over.»

[Pablo Argüelles]: She arrived with plastic bags, and inside she carried the few clothes she had left. 

[Estrellita]: So I could see the decline, right? How badly off she already was.

[Pablo Argüelles]: They started living together and, of course, they had a great deal of fun. They collected a thousand anecdotes. But both of them were deep in their addictions. And over the months, friction overshadowed the good moments: that Cecilia was smoking in the house, that she was taking up too much space in the apartment…

[Estrellita]: I didn’t like it when she’d ask me if she could bring a client over to party. But she did it out of the great need of her addiction. I understand that.

[Pablo Argüelles]: Estrellita recounts that Cecilia ended up receiving clients who didn’t pay her with money, but just with drugs. It was a sign that Cecilia had hit rock bottom, that she no longer valued herself. And then, at night, Estrellita would hear her pacing back and forth in her room, as if tormented, making strange noises. Today she thinks it was probably because Cecilia was trying to quit the drugs and that the withdrawal pangs made her suffer enormously. And on they went. Until about six months in…

[Estrellita]: We had a very serious fight. I think it was over a client or something she did in the house. I don’t quite remember. I was furious, absolutely beside myself, and I confronted her, I said, «I’ve told you a thousand times not to do this and you keep doing it. I am exhausted. I can’t take it anymore.»

[Pablo Argüelles]: Estrellita told Cecilia to leave.

[Estrellita]: But I said it to her in a harsh way, right? And what I do remember is that she then says, «then keep those bags stored for me. I’ll come get them another time, because I can’t right now.» «No, take them now, take them now.» And I ended up throwing them down the staircase. How awful.

[Pablo Argüelles]: They lost track of each other again. And Cecilia continued with drugs and sex work, in an increasingly precarious way. She was a victim of a human trafficking network. She was arrested several times and locked up in the men’s section of Rikers Island, a prison with a terrible reputation for the violence that occurs inside. From there she was sent to an immigration detention center. She was saved from deportation, but was released with an ankle monitor, like the ones you see in movies. And that is how she entered a rehabilitation center in Queens.

[Estrellita]: Let me see, let’s find this famous letter. It’s around here somewhere…

[Pablo Argüelles]: And this is where the letter enters the story.

[Estrellita]: Here it is! Here it is! Oh, my God. I told you. I told you. I found it. I found it. I found it. I found it. Okay. Done. Everything else is secondary now. Here it is.

[Pablo Argüelles]: Can you read it?

[Estrellita]: Would you like me to read it?

[Pablo Argüelles]: Yes, please.

[Estrellita]: «April 16, 2010. Dear Estrellita…» I have to stop. Forgive me, I have to stop. It’s just that I, I don’t know if I can remember. I will never know if I replied to her. Even though we saw each other afterward, but this was very important to her. I will never know if I replied.

«April 16, 2010. Dear Estrellita. I hope that when you receive this you are well. As for me, I can tell you that I am very happy. In a couple of days I will be two months into my recovery. I am in an in-patient program that lasts a year. At first, I thought it would be too much, but today I think that perhaps it is not enough and I may need more time. Many things, deep, internal things, are coming to light and I have a great deal to work on. Among other news, I can tell you that they have already removed the ankle monitor from my leg, and I continue working on my legal status in the country. This letter has two purposes. First, to apologize to you for the inconveniences caused. I am infinitely grateful for all the help you gave me. My behavior truly left much to be desired. And second, due to a mistake of mine, my benefit card has your address. You may receive some letters for me. I know how much that bothers you. Sorry. On the envelope is the address where I am in treatment. I would love to hear from you. A big kiss. Cecilia.»

During the six years I lived in the home of my godmother, my father’s sister in Salta in northern Argentina, we communicated with my father by letter. My sister and I. Phones didn’t exist. I mean, in poor homes like ours with dirt floors. It was letters. So I have a great deal, a very great deal of experience in how to write, in how to respond. And sometimes you can feel all the emotions of the person in the letters. That’s why it bothers me not to know. It bothers me not to know if at some point I was able to respond to her, knowing that I am so good at that, at being reciprocal in a reply. No, I don’t remember, I don’t remember. Only time and space and the universe will know that.

[Pablo Argüelles]: And if you could respond to her now, what would you say?

[Estrellita]: If I had to respond to this letter I would say: «I am so glad, Ceci, that you are in a rehabilitation program and I want you to know that when you come out of there you will have my home again so you can stay here until you recover and until you get back on your feet and can reintegrate into society in a good way, and find a job, and get all that sorted out with your legal status. I will always be here. Even with the differences we had. And it’s okay, don’t worry, I won’t be angry anymore if some letters arrive in your name here at my house.» That’s all. Silly, right?

[Pablo Argüelles]: Silly, right?

This phrase caught me off guard a little. I thought Estrellita’s response would be, I don’t know, more emotional. But it was so simple and ordinary, so full of resignation too. I felt Estrellita’s pain. And at the same time I understood that perhaps she didn’t need to convey that pain with grand words. She knew, in exactly the right measure, how to respond to her friend, even though so many years had passed. She knew that one way or another, Cecilia was listening to her, and that she forgave her. Silly, right?

A break, and we’ll be back.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Well, we are back at the Queens Museum for the last act of the evening.

[Rula, live]: So now we are going to welcome to the stage the one and only, the incomparable Queen, Laura Martínez. Please give her a big round of applause…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura Martínez — we met her in episode 2. Before presenting us with her most famous number, the «Suavecito suavecito» by Laura León, she surprised us with a speech that I think is worth listening to.

[Rula, live]: Comadrita, how are you?

[Laura Martínez]: Thank you so much, darlings. Good Lord, how wonderful. Thank you. Happy, so happy to be here with all of you, truly.

[Rula, live]: Welcome to your home. I’d like you to tell us… Queen, exactly! Let’s hear it!! Let’s hear it! I’d like you to tell us, before you delight us with a musical number, if you remember when the first time you performed this musical number was and what it was like.

[Laura Martínez]: Well, this was when I began my career in 1989, and it was in Guadalajara, Jalisco. The club was called La Malinche. I was just starting out working in clubs and it was my very first steps in performing as Laura León, who opened doors for me in Mexico and in many places, and especially here in the United States. And I truly thank you all infinitely because we have a full house. That reminds us — us, because I am part of all of this — and our warrior, who was Lorena Borjas, who has already left us, and the second warrior was Cecilia. I understood that they truly are two very great figures of New York. Those struggles. And we must not forget it, because sometimes the new people forget where rights come from, where privileges come from. That is going to be a legacy for us, the Latinas, for the queens. The mother dies and the queens are born. They can be queens of the street, those queens who earn their living, who are criticized, who are pointed at. Because there is so much history. From the 80s, 90s, 2000s, and discrimination continues to this day. We criticize the alcoholics, we criticize the drug addicts. Do you know why they become drug addicts, why they are alcoholics, why they end up in a psychiatric clinic? No! Because every trans person has a book, has a story, that many don’t publish, because they don’t even have the energy to do so. Just like  this government, so is the entire society with us. I am 62 years old, and when we, trans women, started out we were trampled on, literally, but that didn’t hurt us. Do you know what hurt us? Our emotions, our hearts, our feelings, and our thoughts. That is why you can look at your sister, your friend, whoever is beside you. Never criticize her because you don’t know what has happened in her life. Your own biological family rejects you, the very family that gave you life kicks you out. But when you make the decision to be a trans woman, it is very hard. And I urge the new generations: don’t stop working. Perhaps we will go, but we are leaving behind that legacy, those ideas, and that work that must keep moving forward, truly. I am going to keep on going, fighting alongside each and every one of you, because when we unify, we will progress. And to all these people behind the scenes who made this happen — my deepest respect. And thank you for being here, for this…

[Rula, live]: Thank you…

[Laura Martínez]: …this production. Thank you so much!

[Rula, live]: Thank you, Laurita. Now let’s go!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And well, what came after is truly impossible to describe here. Laura giving herself completely, looking stunning, with tremendous energy. Cecilia’s children offering her bills as if she were a goddess… And then the rest of the audience, adoring her just the same.

[Laura Martínez]: Thank you, darlings!

[Rula, live]: A round of applause for Laura Martínez!

[Laura Martínez]: Thank you so much, my love! I carry this applause in my heart. My community, my people…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And so we reached the end of the night, and of this episode.

In the coming weeks, we return to our story to go deeper into that world that Cecilia — and Lorena Borjas — defended with claws and nails: the world of the street. And there we will meet a group of women who are often criticized and misunderstood: the sex workers, the whores, of Roosevelt Avenue.

Las Reinas de Queens is a podcast from Central, the series channel of Radio Ambulante Studios, and is part of iHeart Radio’s My Cultura podcast network.

This series was produced by Diego Senior and Pablo Argüelles with additional production and reporting by Nikol Pizarro, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanín.

The editors were Daniel Alarcón, Silvia Viñas, and myself.

Fact-checking is by Bruno Scelza and Nikol Pizarro.

Dmitri Barcomi was the event manager at the Queens Museum. Gianina Enriquez, community organizer at the museum, was our liaison with the Queens Museum. Thank you, Gianina.

Thanks also to Liaam Winslet, Oscar Díaz, Viento Izquierdo, Nic Cory, Chiquitita, and Laura Martínez for being part of the program. And to the Intercultural Collective Transgrediendo, HOPE, and Transmission for helping us spread the word about the event.

On the night of the show, simultaneous English translation was provided by Nayra Pacheco Guzmán and Jennifer Salgado from Rooted Language Justice.

María Linares did the sound design and mixing, as well as the original music. And Pablo Diez assisted with the live event recording.

The graphic design and art direction of the series are by Diego Corzo.

Product development for Las Reinas de Queens was handled by Natalia Ramírez. Digital production was done by Ana María Betancourt and Óscar Luna.

Business development and strategic partnerships were led by Camilo Jiménez Santofimio. And Julián Santos and Eric Spiegelman provided legal support.

Las Reinas de Queens is an original idea by Diego Senior, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanín.

The executive producers are Diego Senior; and from Radio Ambulante Studios, Carolina Guerrero, our CEO.

At iHeart, the executive producers are Arlene Santana and Leo Gomez.

Part of the funding for this project was provided by the Greater Good Science Center at the University of California, Berkeley, as part of their «Expanding Gratitude Through Media» initiative, with the support of the John Templeton Foundation.

You can follow us on social media as centralseriesRA and subscribe to our email newsletter at centralpodcast.audio.

I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz. Thank you for listening.

4 | The Holy Whore

LRDS Tile EP 4 1400x1401 1

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Hello, a warning before we begin: this series contains sensitive content including violence, drugs, and sexual language. We recommend discretion.

The story begins in a large van, on a street in Brooklyn, New York. It’s February 2024.

Inside the vehicle, a dozen young trans people. They’re from different countries: Mexico, Colombia, Peru.

[Viento]: The dress code is red, right? Red. And showing some body.

[Edua]: I did my hair and put a ton of red flowers in it.

[Viento]: I was wearing a dress with these great sleeves and a giant red hat and heels that I would never wear now, but they were like those stiletto ones.

[Rio]: I showed up in a long dress with feathers, a red one.

[Edua]: Wow. A super glamorous red dress with red feathers.

[Rio]: And I also had a boa made out of hundred-dollar bills.

[Viento]: It looked like it was made of dollars, it was incredible. For me it’s a really beautiful memory. And also a very sad one.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Sad, because despite appearances, they are all in mourning. The van is taking them to St. Patrick’s Cathedral in Manhattan, for the funeral of their mother, a queen among queens: Cecilia Gentili.

[Rio]: We were all in there watching and watching the clock. 

[Viento]: And around halfway there, we’re like, «why are we still in Brooklyn?»

[Rio]: And that was when we said, «hey, where are you going?»

[Viento]: And we tell him like, «hey, why are you taking this route?» And he says, «oh, because I’m going to 51st and whatever,» like, I don’t know what address he said. And we’re like, «what?! But we are going to Manhattan!»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They exchange looks and think the same thing: if they want to make it to the funeral on time…

[Rio]: I think we’re going to have to take the subway.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The subway, at rush hour, in winter.

[Rio]: Very, very stressful because it wasn’t just a matter of taking the train. It was running to the train, switching trains, and then running the three or four blocks we had to run, and I was in stripper heels.

[Viento]: So, picture like 10, 12 trans people, very queened up, in heels, running from the van…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Flying to the station.

[Rio]: We were completely insane.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laughing, screaming.

[Viento]: Like, if anyone had seen us on the street, they would have thought we were filming a movie.

[Edua]: It was… Yeah, it was like total drama, comedy, beauty. Very Cecilia the whole time. Like, wow, this is so fucking Cecilia, because we all got off very glamourous. We got on the train…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And there’s a preacher reading out loud from the Bible. 

[Viento]: And you ignore him because, well, if he wants to read the Bible, let him read the Bible. But out of nowhere he started kind of going at us, right?

[Rio]: Saying we were going to hell and that we needed to repent and all that stuff.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Transphobic things I won’t repeat here.

[Rio]: You don’t know what he’s going to do, but you also know there are 12 of us, and I’m wearing heels, sharp ones…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: So they started defending themselves.

[Rio]: Because we had no time or energy for that nonsense.

[Viento]: Like, we’re going to our mother’s funeral, just shut up, right? Like, shut up. And the man just kept going on and on. So, I don’t know if it was in a moment of… It’s like when grief becomes so strong it turns into strength or something, and Rio just started singing…

[Rio]: «First I was afraid, I was petrified»…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: «I Will Survive» by Gloria Gaynor.

[Rio]: Starting from the very beginning of the song, because we didn’t know how long that person was going to keep bothering us.

[Viento]: We started singing along with her, and then the whole train started singing with us.

[Rio]: They were laughing, singing with us. It was one of those New York moments where you can feel there’s really like a connection with all these people you don’t know.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The entire train car drove the preacher out at the next stop. And so, running again toward the cathedral — a little late perhaps, but in style — they couldn’t stop thinking that they were living out one of the stories their mother Cecilia would have told them.

[Rio]: It was a very Cecilia experience, because it was a moment where we were really feeling mortality, the trauma of losing Cecilia — which for me was the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to me in my life. And just like the way she wrote and told her stories, we found the humor in it.

[Viento]: Like, we all felt so strongly that sense of: «Ceci did this,» like, «Ceci orchestrated the universe to make this happen.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Among all the queens of Queens, Cecilia Gentili left a unique legacy. Not only of activism and protecting the community, but also an entire catalog of stories that are still being told today.

And her funeral was perhaps her masterpiece.

From Central Series and Radio Ambulante Studios, this is Las Reinas de Queens. I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz.

Episode 4. The Holy Whore.

Surrounded by skyscrapers, St. Patrick’s Cathedral on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan stands out for its white walls, its stained glass windows, and its two neo-Gothic towers. It’s one of the world’s most important Catholic churches. It has been the setting for funerals of athletes, politicians, and artists. And also for LGBTQ community protests against Catholic Church discrimination during the HIV epidemic in the 1980s. A historic landmark.

Cecilia Gentili’s funeral was held there on February 15, 2024. The church was packed, with more than a thousand people — something unusual.

[Priest]: Well, welcome to St. Patrick’s Cathedral…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: So much so that the priest himself points it out as he extends his greeting. 

[Priest]: Except on Easter Sunday we don’t really have a crowd that is, that is this well turned out, you know?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: He says the cathedral only fills up like this on Easter Sunday. And that applause, that howl, is the first sign that this funeral will be like no other.

[Priest]: Let us pray…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Let’s move from the cathedral to the theater:

[Cecilia Gentili]: I am an atheist…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: This is Cecilia Gentili in her theater piece «Red Ink,» which she staged in New York in 2023. It was a monologue in which she told stories about her childhood and youth in Argentina and about her deeply conflicted and contradictory relationship with religion.

[Cecilia Gentili]: I am an atheist, but I have had many, many calls from God…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: «I am an atheist,» she says. «But I have had many, many calls from God.»

[Cecilia Gentili]: In Rosario, the most important thing that happened to me is that I met the first trans person that I ever met in my life.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And in that piece, Cecilia said that the most important call from God in her life came at age 17, when, in the city of Rosario, she met trans people for the first time in her life. Among them was a woman known as La Correntina.

[Norma]: La Correntina was a drag performer with a long history. She was a prominent figure here in Rosario — she took her under her wing and taught her everything she knew about putting together costumes, making feather pieces, doing makeup. And they began putting on shows at a bar that no longer exists, called Inizio, which was right across from a plaza where the girls worked in sex work.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: This is Norma, Cecilia’s lifelong friend. They were born and grew up in a small town called Gálvez. And what bound them from the start was their desire to live against the customs and prejudices of their neighbors.

[Norma]: The only thing that unproductive, forked-tongue society did…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That is, snake-tongued…

[Norma]: Was to trap people within their own demons and refuse to let them simply be or move forward.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Cecilia came from a poor family of Indigenous descent. That, according to Norma, left her with a feeling of inferiority for a long time. But the town’s rejection manifested in a far more violent way, one impossible to forget. For years, Cecilia was the victim of sexual abuse by a neighbor. And for years, no one knew.

[Norma]: This story of the abuse she suffered as a girl is the dark cloud she fought with every day in search of answers.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Cecilia escaped at 17 to the city of Rosario. And there, guided by La Correntina, she began performing in “transformismo” shows — as that type of entertainment is typically called in Argentina. But Cecilia’s numbers had a twist. While others dressed up and put on makeup chasing an unattainable ideal of feminine beauty…

[Norma]: When Cecilia came on, she was the girl next door, you know? It became a more theatrical event. She always went toward the everyday and toward the reality of bodies worn by time, you know?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She dressed like an ordinary woman — sagging breasts, flat behind, invisible hips…

[Norma]: She made herself look plain, she was scrawny, her hair was a mess, you know? And with that she hooked and charmed snakes out of her audience, you know?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And while others lip-synced to Madonna or Whitney Houston, Cecilia lip-synced to Argentine artists from the seventies, like Violeta Rivas.

[Norma]: Which was very cliché, very, very bizarre music.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Or well, she tried to lip-sync. Because she could never manage to memorize the songs. But instead of trying to hide the problem, she made it part of the act.

[Norma]: The music would go one way and her mouth would go another — then every so often she’d remember, you know, that she was supposed to be lip-syncing. So she satirized her own weaknesses.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And over time she also started adding little monologues and telling stories about the people she knew.

[Norma]: She broke the fourth wall constantly to talk to the audience, you know? Skills the other girls simply didn’t have.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: From that point on, Cecilia began to challenge what was expected of her as a trans woman. And that was how she started teaching herself — and her community — that there were other ways to represent their experience.

[Priest]: Could the person who is going to read the second reading, please come forward?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: LaLa Zannell, Cecilia’s sister, comes up to the altar to read the Psalm prayer. And as she reaches the last step, she raises her right foot ever so slightly — very flirtatiously. The priest laughs, and she approaches the microphone.

[LaLa]: We still gonna show up as us.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: «We’re going to show up exactly as we are,» she says. And she begins:

[LaLa]: A reading from the first letter of St. John.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: A reading from the first letter of St. John: «See what love the Father has for us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him…»

[LaLa]: The word of the Lord.

[Priest]: Thanks be to God.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Cecilia used to say that when she was little she didn’t feel like she was a part of this world. As if she were an extraterrestrial. As if people didn’t truly know her.

That feeling of discomfort made her flee — first from Gálvez, and then, around the year 2000, from Rosario. There, the drag scene had declined. The police harassed trans people. And the gravitational pull of her hometown was still too strong. On top of that, Cecilia needed to earn more money to continue her transition. So she went further. To Miami.

There she began working as an unlicensed hairdresser. She had no papers, there were no opportunities and that pushed her into sex work. And into drug use. She entered a great labyrinth. And there, a prophecy began to come true — one that, according to her stories, a trans woman from Rosario had once made to her: «if you want to be trans,» she told her…

[Cecilia Gentili]: You’re gonna be a whore…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: You will be a whore.

[Cecilia Gentili]: You are gonna get high…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: You will get high.

[Cecilia Gentili]: And you’re gonna die young.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And you will die young.

[Cecilia Gentili]: And I said, «fine, fine. How young?»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: «Ok, ok, but how young?» Cecilia asked. But then she realized she didn’t care about her age. She preferred to live a short, authentic life over a long, false one.

[Cecilia Gentili]: And I said, «this is for me. I want to do this. Let’s start.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And so she began her transition.

[Cecilia Gentili]: And that’s how I started my transition.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Cecilia died at 52, after taking a dose of heroin not knowing it had been laced with fentanyl.

[Priest]: Death is not the end, nor does it break the bonds forged in life.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: At the funeral, the priest gives his homily. He says that the Church intercedes for the dead, out of its conviction that death is not the end, nor does it break the bonds formed in life.

[Priest]: Death is an enemy, but death is now an enemy defeated.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Death is an enemy, but now it is a defeated enemy.

[Priest]: Amen.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’ll be right back.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’re back on Las Reinas de Queens.

Cecilia navigated the labyrinth of drugs and sex work during the first ten years of her life in the United States.

Along that road — which took her from Miami to San Francisco and then to New York — sex work gave her enough money to have surgeries, get a nice apartment, expensive clothes… And also heroin. Her struggle with addiction led her to lose everything. She fell into homelessness. She became a victim of human trafficking. She ended up in prison.

But then, with the help of several strangers who were part of the trans community, she found her way out of the labyrinth. When she was on the verge of being deported, a social worker managed to transfer her to a rehabilitation center. And during the 17 months she spent there, a lawyer helped her obtain asylum in the United States. And later, another lawyer handled her name change.

It was at that point, around 2010, that Cecilia began to reinvent herself as a storyteller.

Behind that reinvention were two key steps. The first was beginning to work for the city’s trans community. With her papers in order, she found work at a community health center in lower Manhattan called APICHA. There she accompanied some six hundred and fifty people through their transition processes — six hundred and fifty people she listened to and offered her own story to as a guide. Here’s Norma again.

[Norma]: Her story serves a purpose. It serves precisely as a testimony for the people she had — what were called «her cases» at the time. They were her cases, like little folders they would hand her. And I think that’s where her storytelling begins, in this therapeutic narrative she creates with each of her cases — building a bond, the bond of a mother.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But that role was heavy. After four years, Cecilia quit APICHA.

[Norma]: She told me: I can’t keep working here at APICHA because it means listening to my own story every day. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She had been listening to and telling trauma for years — first to her lawyers and immigration officials, and then to her patients. The world seemed to ask of her only pain and sadness. But Cecilia knew that her story — and trans stories — were so much more than tragedy. And this is where the second key step comes in.

[Cecilia Gentili]: This dude is perfect. God… God has sent him to me. About time.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: At night, Cecilia began telling her stories at some of the city’s trans bars. And there she gave a new purpose to what was perhaps her greatest gift.

[Norma]: She understood that humor is a weapon, and she understood that it can also transform difficult stories into stories that can make you laugh.

[Katia]: It was what she could do: «hey, I’m going to talk about this thing that is a huge and horrible tragedy. And I’m going to make you laugh.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: This is Katia Perea, a friend of Cecilia’s.

[Katia]: When she spoke and told these stories, she was in that moment teaching you that it was possible to survive the things that many of us have suffered, you know, being queer and trans from a young age. And so, how we can have joy today, right now.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And so, to help you better understand all of this, Katia is going to tell us one of Cecilia’s most iconic stories. The story of Jesus’s penis.

Ok, the 1980s in Rosario, Argentina. Cecilia is a young trans woman, naive, romantic, full of hormones, who spends her time at the city’s trans bar.

[Katia]: So, she’s there on a Monday, a Tuesday afternoon, into the evening, and a man shows up.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: A strikingly handsome man with a Polaroid camera hanging over his pecs.

[Katia]: And he says to her: «you are so beautiful.» And she’s like, «oh, thank you.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But Cecilia, so innocent at the time, feels the need to give him fair warning…

[Katia]: «Just so you know, I’m trans»… And he goes, «No, I can’t believe it!»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: «How is that possible!? God… Well, I don’t care, you are too beautiful. You’re going to be my first trans woman!»

[Katia]: Right away she’s in the fantasy that he is in love with her. He’s going to marry her. They’re going to have a family.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But the man offers her something less romantic.

[Katia]: He tells her, “let’s have sex in the bathroom.”

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Cecilia calculates: he could be the man of her life.

[Katia]: So she says, «okay.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And in the bar’s dirty little bathroom, the man gets straight to the point. He pulls down his pants, and Cecilia sees that he has a dark mark on his penis.

[Katia]: And she said, «I got a little worried because it’s the AIDS season, so I didn’t know what it was.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It was the time of the AIDS epidemic, after all.

[Katia]: «But when I start the blowjob, I realize as it starts to grow, that it was a tattoo… of Jesus Christ.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Jesus!

[Katia]: Oh Jesus! Yes! Here comes Jesus!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They get going. But then Cecilia hears a click.

[Katia]: He takes a photo of her with the Polaroid…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The man has just taken a photo of her with the Polaroid!

[Katia]: The photo comes out and he says, «okay, I’m going to step out. You clean yourself up.» And so she’s so young, you know, and naive. She’s thinking, «oh, now I have a boyfriend and we’re going to get married and…» Okay, so she comes out and goes to find him at the bar — which is empty because it’s Tuesday — and she looks around and doesn’t see him.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The guy isn’t in the bar, or outside on the street either. Cecilia goes back to the counter and confesses to the bartender: something very strange just happened to her.

[Katia]: He goes, «strange, that a man took you back there and had sex with you?» “Yes…” «And that he had a tattoo of Jesus Christ on his penis?» “Yes…” At that moment she sees that behind the bartender, there in the bar, are all the photos of the girls that man had taken in the bathroom. And she realized that she was now part of that group. And then she says: «and that’s the last time I ever had sex for free.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And that was the last time Cecilia gave sex away for free. She had found her profession: sex work. But of course, Cecilia knew how to modulate her stories depending on the audience in front of her.

[Oscar]: Yes, I think she had already noticed how people responded over years of telling those stories.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: This is Oscar, one of Cecilia’s daughters, who worked with her for many years.

[Oscar]: She knew how to inject charisma from different angles into the story to highlight different things. So every time you got to hear a story, whether you’d already heard it or it was your first time, something different always stood out.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Cecilia read her audiences. And I say that in the plural, because throughout the 2010s she was building a dual career — as an activist and as a storyteller. And she reached more and more audiences. On one hand, she moved from bars to off-Broadway theaters. And on the other, she went from working for other LGBTQ organizations to founding her own company in 2018: Trans Equity Consulting.

[Viento]: It was an organization that did consulting on trans issues, by trans people, from a trans perspective.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: This is Viento, one of Cecilia’s children — one we heard singing «I Will Survive» on the subway.

[Viento]: And Ceci really advocated for trans people to speak only from their own experience, and that that experience itself was like our school, you could say.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Viento worked with Cecilia at Trans Equity. And they were something like a commando unit. A trans commando unit, ready to move into cis-heteronormative territory. Cecilia knew that there were countless companies and organizations that had no idea how to treat trans employees or clients. And that’s where Trans Equity came in with training sessions.

[Viento]: What gender is, what it means to be trans, what pronouns are, and so on — like, starting from zero: what the trans experience is and how to treat and provide services to trans people in your organization.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And the secret weapon of those training sessions was, of course, Cecilia’s stories.

[Viento]: You’d just put up a slide about… it could be anything… Pronouns. And she’d spend like half an hour on that slide, just talking about something that had happened to her. She always connected it back to her own life.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And that connection — so strategic — always had a different purpose depending on the audience. Because, as we’ve already heard, with her stories Cecilia could heal and comfort and entertain, but also educate, persuade, and move people.

[Norma]: Never with bitterness, always with humor.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Back to Norma.

[Norma]: She had told me: «I discovered…» Oh, I don’t know if it’s okay for me to say this, but anyway… «I actually discovered how to get money out of rich people for my community, because I found a gap. I found a gray area in the system. Not stealing from them, right? No. But how to ask them and how to make them feel guilty.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Cecilia frequented many fundraising galas for New York’s trans community. There she rubbed shoulders with wealthy people, always willing to donate to a good cause. And to benefit from tax deductions. Cecilia knew this. So she told stories that placed the audience before a dilemma.

[Norma]: She put you in a bind with your sense of emotional responsibility toward others, to give those people the chance to be the saviors, right? She cast them in that role.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She was like Robin Hood. And her stories were like arrows aimed straight at the hearts of the wealthy. And their wallets. And politicians — well, she charmed them too.

Cecilia led an entire movement that managed to give sex workers greater legal protections in New York. She helped the state legislature pass a law so that police could no longer detain sex workers simply for being on the street. And at the time of her death she was supporting a bill aimed at decriminalizing sex work in the state — which, let’s not forget, is still a crime in New York.

In short: Cecilia seemed to be everywhere at once. And in each of those spaces, the applause was vital.

[Norma]: The applause was vital — but not for the sake of the applause itself, but for the communion that existed between the audience and what she was telling. I think without that, yes, she could not have lived.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Because that communion was her ultimate purpose. And precisely for that reason, Cecilia sometimes didn’t hold back when it came to embellishing her stories or changing their content to sharpen the meaning she was after.

The man with the Polaroid camera, for example, didn’t actually have a tattoo of Jesus — it was of the Virgin Mary. But what we might consider a deception could also be seen as a way of taking ownership of her past and the story she told about her life. Shaping herself beyond the trauma, the abuse, and the pain.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In her journey as a storyteller, fiction and reality always went hand in hand. In 2018 she had a role in one of the first television series to address the trans experience with trans characters and trans actors: POSE.

[Cecilia en POSE]: But Miss Orlando is here to make things right.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: There she played Miss Orlando, a Latin trans woman from New York who in the 1980s sold hormones to low-income trans people.

And so, over the course of a decade, Cecilia’s stories touched more and more people. And the wider her reach grew, the more she became her own myth. But that myth was still missing its final chapter. We’ll be right back.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’re back on Las Reinas de Queens.

After the priest’s homily — in which he spoke of conquering death — the funeral continues. And every evocation of Cecilia’s life fills the cathedral audience with life. Katia Perea, Cecilia’s friend who told us the Polaroid man story, comes up to the altar…

[Katia]: And may Cecilia’s community be loved and received and seen by each other…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And she prays for the community’s access to gender-affirming healthcare. Or, as Katia puts it, «life-affirming.»

[Katia]: We pray to our Lord Jesus Christ, who is full of love. Lord, hear our prayer.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And then three people share memories of Cecilia.

[Peter]: How many times our phone would ring in the middle of the night…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Peter, her partner of more than 10 years, speaks about how Cecilia would get up in the middle of the night to help her APICHA children…

[Peter]: And she’d always be there and always answer that call.

[Ceyenne Doroshow]: But this lady worked so hard, to make sure…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And Ceyenne Doroshow, one of the leaders of the Black trans community, recalls that Cecilia did everything in her power to protect sex workers.

[Ceyenne Doroshow]: That sex workers are free. I don’t know, y’all may have heard the story that Jesus ministered to all. Cecilia ministered to all.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Cecilia, like Jesus, took care of everyone.

There’s an archival recording of Cecilia’s voice I want you to hear.

[Cecilia Gentili]: Hi, hi, hi. Hola, hola, hola. Hello to everyone. Thank you all for being here…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It’s from March 31, 2021, a year after the death of Lorena Borjas, the queen of queens, whom we met in our first episode. A group of her friends and members of the Latin trans sex worker community had gathered to celebrate a small street near Roosevelt Avenue receiving a new name: Lorena Borjas Way.

[Cecilia Gentili]: I have sort of mixed feelings. Because there’s no point in having a street named after Lorena if there’s no commitment, no desire to do what the community needs. There’s no point in having a street named after Lorena if there are girls who have nothing to eat. There’s no point in having a street named after Lorena if there are girls who can’t pay rent, who have no doctor, who have nowhere to go when they’re at their lowest. All these tears we can shed mean nothing if we don’t all come together to do what the community needs — because that’s what Lorena wanted. And that’s what would make Lorena happy. I’m going to cry, because why not, right? But at the same time I commit to keep working. And I want everyone here to do the same — for all of us here to have a desire to work for the community.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The greatest reason Cecilia’s stories reached so many people is that Cecilia worked without rest, day and night. That is the same reason thousands attended her funeral.

[Liaam]: May new generations learn about her, about the constant struggle of this woman, this warrior…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And that is the same reason that on that day, Liaam Winslet — director of the Colectivo Transgrediendo, right-hand woman to Lorena Borjas, and the third person tasked with honoring Cecilia — calls her this:

[Liaam]: This whore, this great whore, Saint Cecilia, the mother of all whores, today we say see you soon…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Oscar, Cecilia’s daughter, stands beside Liaam, translating into English.

[Oscar]: This whore, this great whore, Saint Cecilia, mother of all whores…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And in that moment something clicks in the community. In Katia…

[Katia]: That moment alone left us in shock.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And in Norma, watching the funeral online from Argentina.

[Norma]: It was overwhelming — I burst into tears, and even now as I remember it I get emotional…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And in Cecilia’s children who sang «I Will Survive» on the subway.

[Rio]: Yeah, I said «oh, shit» — in that moment I said ok, now we are being real. Now we’re really being honest.

[Monte]: The atmosphere just shifted. For us in that moment, oh, it was like the most beautiful, most incredible, most powerful thing to say about Cecilia…

[Viento]: Like she named something that was maybe on many people’s minds, but they hadn’t known how to put into words like that.

[Rio]: Because that was Cecilia’s reality — she was the holy mother of whores. That was her work, the work of her life.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Liaam’s words charge the audience with energy. And so, when the hymn preceding communion begins…

[Katia]: The cantor sings «Ave María» and someone we didn’t know stood up. They started singing «Ave Cecilia» over the «Ave María.»

[Oscar]: And at a certain moment that person was inspired, filled with feeling, and started dancing, and moved all the way down the aisle. It’s a large cathedral. That is not a small aisle.

[Katia]: And then they were about to reach the altar and it was like, wow, what’s going on — a shock.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But just as they reach the steps, they stop and dance back.

[Katia]: But I think in that moment it really bothered the person assisting the monsignor, and he said something to them.

[Monte]: I noticed how they were talking to each other. And I was like, what? What was going to happen now? The plan was for me to sing my song.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Monte, Cecilia’s son and an artist, was going to perform one of his songs after the «Ave María,» during communion — you know, when people can come forward to receive the host that symbolizes the body of Christ. But when the «Ave María» ends, amid the audience’s applause, another priest approaches the officiating priest and asks him to say the Lord’s prayer and dismiss the congregation. That is, without taking communion.

[Monte]: I noticed they were already cutting the Mass short. They were like taking away time. We were like, okay, let’s do this faster.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And so, Cecilia’s casket begins to leave the Cathedral in silence.

[Monte]: So I thought: «oh, maybe I’m not going to sing after all.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But at that moment, Cayenne, Cecilia’s sister, says to Monte:

[Monte]: «Go up right now and sing.» And I was like, okay.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Monte runs up to the altar, where the microphone is, and sings.

Everyone begins shouting Cecilia’s name, over and over. And thousands of kilometers away, Norma speaks to her, as if she were right there.

[Norma]: «Girl, look at what you did.» That was my expression. My words were like a way of conveying to Cecilia what was happening. «Girl, look at how many people are here. Girl, look at what the cathedral looks like outside. Look at the flowers.» In that moment, for me, she transcended. I couldn’t say, «girl, look, they’re calling you a saint.» No. She was no longer herself. She had become a saint.

[Monte]: She is now a saint — not metaphorically, not as a joke, not as an exaggeration, but truly.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And Cecilia’s story reaches its final chapter.

[Norma]: It had the touch of St. Patrick’s magnificency, right? And it had the wildness of people going absolutely crazy, screaming, uninhibited. It was a synthesis of the dramaturgy she had built.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But the interpretations continue. Because what happens to a person’s story when their community elevates them to sainthood?

[Rio]: I find it very complicated, because when you canonize someone, you’re also separating them from the community. You’re making them into a kind of person that Ceci wasn’t.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Some of Cecilia’s children fear that over time the less heroic sides of their mother will be forgotten: the lazy Cecilia, the critical and gossipy and resentful Cecilia, the romantic and hot-blooded Cecilia, the Cecilia from that speech on Roosevelt Avenue — the one asking her community for help, the one who was tired.

[Norma]: Maybe by making her a saint, that earthly vision of her gets lost — the daily struggle, all of that. But then again, that is also the work of those who remained on earth.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: A few days after the funeral, the Archdiocese of New York issued a statement.

In it, the Cathedral’s pastor said he had agreed to hold the funeral at St. Patrick’s without knowing Cecilia’s story. The Archdiocese added that the event was an insult to the Catholic faith and that the behavior of the audience was, and I quote, «scandalous.»

In the media and on social networks, the controversy erupted. And at the center of that controversy were the words Liaam spoke in the cathedral: «This whore, this great whore, Saint Cecilia, mother of all whores.» It seemed to imply that those two words — «saint» and «whore» — cannot go together.

And so, under pressure from various conservative Catholic groups, the cathedral’s pastor held a «Mass of Reparations» to atone for the supposed harm caused to the Church by the funeral.

The message was clear: the community was not welcome. It was a reminder that all of Cecilia’s work for the trans community and for sex workers could not be taken for granted.

And that is why in the next episode we will return to Queens for a night of trans remembrance. Because sometimes remembering is the best way to keep a story going.

Las Reinas de Queens is a podcast from Central, the series channel of Radio Ambulante Studios, and is part of the My Cultura podcast network on iHeart Radio.

This series was produced by Diego Senior and Pablo Argüelles, with additional production and reporting by Nikol Pizarro, Joana Toro, Andrés Sanín, Sindy Nanclares, and Sofía Campero.

The editors were Daniel Alarcón, Silvia Viñas, and myself.

Fact-checking by Bruno Scelza and Nikol Pizarro.

María Linares handled sound design and mixing, as well as the original music.

The song «Una Casita, Pt. 2» was courtesy of the artist Monte Marin, also known as STEFA*.

Archival material from the show Red Ink was courtesy of Nic Cory. Trans Equity Consulting provided the recording of Cecilia’s funeral.

The graphic design and art direction for the series are by Diego Corzo.

Product development for Las Reinas de Queens was handled by Natalia Ramírez. Digital production by Ana María Betancourt and Óscar Luna.

Business development and strategic partnerships were led by Camilo Jiménez Santofimio. And Julián Santos and Eric Spiegelman provided legal support.

Las Reinas de Queens is an original idea by Diego Senior, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanín.

Executive producers are Diego Senior, and from Radio Ambulante Studios, Carolina Guerrero, our CEO.

At iHeart, the executive producers are Arlene Santana and Leo Gomez.

Part of the funding for this project was provided by the Greater Good Science Center at the University of California, Berkeley, as part of its «Expanding Gratitude» initiative, with support from the John Templeton Foundation.

You can follow us on social media at centralseriesRA and subscribe to our newsletter at centralpodcast.audio.

I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz. Thank you for listening.

3 | The Queens of the Stage

Las reinas del escenario

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Hello, a warning before we begin: this series contains sensitive content including violence, drugs, and sexual language. We recommend discretion.

Our stage is a small, old platform…

[Keyly Rosemberg]: It was in 2003 that I started going out to the clubs, watching the shows.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: At the back of a dimly lit bar…

[Keyly Rosemberg]: Maybe one of the first shows I ever saw was at a place called Lucho’s Club, which was on 69th and Roosevelt Avenue.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It’s already the early hours of the morning, the busiest hours, and the performers — mostly trans — are lip-syncing to the most heartbreaking, and sensual, and danceable songs in the Latin American songbook.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: I would go there to watch them. I loved it. It’s just something else, seeing so much beauty — because you can call it beauty. Seeing them looking so pretty  on a stage, performing a song, like you’re watching a real artist. But I never said I’ll be on a stage. I never thought about being in a show.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Introducing  Keyly Rosemberg. Leader of the Rosemberg family, one of the mothers within the community of the Queens of Queens. We heard about her at the end of the last episode.

Keyly is a sex worker, a performer, and she also cleans offices in New Jersey. She arrived in New York from El Salvador in 1995, when she was 13 years old. And by the time she was 17, she was already going out to party with her friends to the bars on Roosevelt Avenue in Queens. She got in with a fake ID.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: From the moment you arrived you paid $5, you danced all night. At two, two-thirty in the morning they’d stop the music and the host would start running the show.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And she began to love that world of nightly performances. Especially the way the hosts — the emcees — ran the shows every night. Between songs they would approach the audience, joke around, drink… but mostly, they would direct attention to the evening’s performers.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: The hosts always look for three or four people who do one or two songs each, and those are the ones who entertain the crowd. The host comes out, then the next one, then the third. And so on.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: One night, in the mid-2000s, at the legendary Lucho’s Club on Roosevelt, Keyly saw Laura Martínez’s show for the first time — Laura, who we met in the last episode. That night Laura lip-synced to Rocío Dúrcal.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: And well, for someone who has never been in front of a real artist, you feel like you’re actually watching the artist, because she really looked like Rocío Dúrcal. I don’t remember the songs, but yes, everyone enjoyed it, they  enjoyed it. She just looked so beautiful, so beautiful. She embodied the character. And she conquered all of Queens.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Like that,  many years went by…

[Keyly Rosemberg]: Keyly Rosemberg was watching the artists for 20 years, 20 years being their fan. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Because they don’t become mothers and families  overnight: they take root in the harsh and unforgiving atmosphere of Roosevelt Avenue, where solidarity and competition go hand in hand. And in an environment like that, not many families survive.

From Central Series and Radio Ambulante Studios, this is Las Reinas de Queens. I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz. Episode 3. The Queens of the Stage.

Some years are best forgotten. For Keyly Rosemberg, that was 2015.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: It was a very hard year.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Her mother died back in her home country.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: I left in an emergency for El Salvador…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And then her husband was unfaithful to her.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: That same day I found a lawyer and decided to get divorced.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But out of those two sorrows came a rebirth that began with a friend’s proposal.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: She says to me, «I want you to do a Selena show,» she says.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: A Selena show at a bar on Roosevelt. That meant getting up on stage — the very thing that she had been too shy to do for decades.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: Oh, it made me laugh. «Are you crazy?» I said to her. «How am I going to be putting on a show? I don’t know how to do that.» «Yes, I want you to do it,» she says. «It’s to send money to a home for the elderly in El Salvador for some old folks. You can sometimes do a lot with a dollar. » She convinced me. I asked a friend to lend me a dress. She lent it to me. «Yes,» she said, «yes, I’ll lend it to you.» They dressed me in a red dress. They did my makeup. They put my hair up in a bun. And they transformed me into Selena. 

Well, feeling nervous, I said, «I don’t know how this is going to go, but I’m going to do it.» And I did it. I performed «No me queda más» by Selena. At the moment I was performing «No me queda más,» so many things went through my mind: my relationship, my mother. But more than anything, my relationship…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: With that heartbreak, Keyly gave in to the moment. She nailed the lip-sync perfectly and the rest was pure improvisation.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: I do whatever comes to me on stage. Throwing a bucket of beer in my face — I’ll do it. If it occurs to me to throw myself on a table on stage, I do it. So I don’t practice.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And that approach worked.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: The crowd adored me. I don’t know if it was because it was my first time, or if they genuinely liked my show. But the crowd really adored me. I did super well on tips.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The tips. With those and with the audience’s applause, Keyly’s shyness evaporated. And suddenly, the royalty of the Roosevelt Avenue nightlife scene took notice of her.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: I received a lot of messages from old-school trans friends, the ones who already have experience. Among them, Lorena St. Cartier, Laura Martínez. And they told me: «Don’t give up, you do it beautifully. For your first show, you knocked it out of the park.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And one of those queens, Lorena St. Cartier, gave Keyly a piece of advice.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: «Keyly,» she says, «your worst enemy on a stage is the audience. Why?» she says. «Because the audience tries to scan you from head to toe. They stare directly at you, in case you slip up on something.» And she says: «Challenge them. When you’re on that stage, live the song, sing it. Don’t look away from that person, arouse them. Like when you’re arousing  a man.» Her words have stayed with me.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And with her 20 years of experience as a spectator, Keyly already knew how to stand out among other artists.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: There are a lot of girls who are gorgeous at performing — at doing the splits, jumping, doing backflips. I’m not going to do that because I have silicone in my body. I’m not going to do it, but I know how to choose a song. I’ve been able to go to any stage, and I know what song to bring.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Keyly sensed that if she wanted to carve out a space for herself, she had to be unpredictable. That’s how her career on the Roosevelt stages began — as a chameleon capable of ruling a cumbia, a ranchera, a bachata, or a cheesy ’80s ballad.

Soon, the family mothers reacted. Among them, a queen named Jesica Lafontaine. Like Laura Martínez, Jesica had her own family of performers and shows: the Lafontaine family.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: Jesica Lafontaine, who, at the time, was the promoter of the nights — Noches de Aventurera — came up with the idea of crowning me Miss El Salvador.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The Miss El Salvador or Miss Central America or Miss-whatever-other-country-or-region crown is awarded by the show promoters, who are usually also the mothers, the heads of the houses.

So having one of those mothers crown you means a great deal, because a crown opens the doors to the royalty that moves through the nightlife world of Queens. A crown brings applause, prestige, attention.

On the other hand, the person who bestows a crown does so knowing they are empowering and taking under their wing a girl who will cultivate followers that will bring more dollars and business to the bars. These new audiences will help keep the houses and their respective mothers relevant.

Crowns are therefore a way of surviving, but also of expressing pride and identity.

And so, with her new crown, Keyly drew in some girls who did sex work on the street and let them join her with their own shows. Little by little she protected them from the loneliness and danger of being out in the open, extending that same kindness she herself had once received.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: When they crown me, the girls I bring in from the street to watch my show start calling me: my mother, mother. And we formed a little group of about six, with me — maybe because I was the oldest — as the leader. And people started saying, «the Rosemberg family.» That’s where it all began.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But crowns are also heavy. And they also sow envy and competition. Because according to Keyly, other queens saw her shine as a threat.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: The people who had pushed me to do shows started giving me dirty looks when it came to lending me clothes. First of all because we’re in an envious environment.  So if you work for Club Evolution and I want your outfit to go to El Trio — which is my other house, El Trio — you’re going to feel like, why should I lend it to her if she’s taking it to the competition. That’s where the jealousy starts.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Added to that rivalry between friends — or frenemies, as they say in English — are the bars competing against each other, their owners, their promoters, and the respective houses led by those already established mothers.

And faced with the lack of borrowed outfits, Keyly once again used her resourcefulness to hold on to the place she had earned. In the middle of necessity, she found a challenge and a passion that would make her family stand out: fashion design.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: I started buying fabrics, making little things for myself. Everything looked good on me. So I bought an industrial sewing machine, a better one, I paid around $600 for it. But I, Keyly Rosemberg, am not going to wear an outfit I’ve already worn.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And since then she has made more than 300 costumes — for herself and for her daughters.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: I don’t like a Rosemberg child to show up in rags or to show up looking bad. Because that reflects on the mother. That reflects on the family.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: After the break, we’ll meet one of Keyly’s daughters: Zuleyka Rosemberg. And with her, the art of winning crowns and choosing a mother.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Welcome back. So, a family needs daughters.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: Well, to begin with, I have many names. Legally, my name is Levi Urquilla, and that’s how I’m known mostly in the LGBT community, working collectively. But at night, or in the bars, or in the shows, in the competitions, my name is Zuleyka Rosemberg.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Zuleyka is Salvadoran and arrived in the city in 2019, when she was 25 years old. And well, it was a tough arrival.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: It was mostly the first week that I was sleeping outside, in the parks, or sometimes… One night, I slept on the train.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But she didn’t let herself be intimidated. She soon found a bed in a shelter and began exploring the city, especially the bars on Roosevelt Avenue in Queens. And there, at one called El Trio, she met a group of trans girls and gay guys. They were from Guatemala, Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador… And that little group had a name: La Casa del Rostro — the House of the Face.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: Because we were like only young girls, like under 25. And we were all very young and pretty. I didn’t consider myself pretty but there I was anyway.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: At the time Zuleyka identified as a gay boy. And that’s how she joined the group.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: We spent time together. It was mostly a group of dreamy girls living together, who had just arrived in this city.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Zuleyka started spending her time in the bars on Roosevelt. And there she came across stars like Laura Martínez and Keyly Rosemberg performing as their most beloved artists.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: Rocío Dúrcal, Marisela, Laura León, Selena…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: For Zuleyka it was love at first sight with the shows: the colorful dresses, the sequins and the lights, the beauty of the performers and their ability to mesmerize everyone: the drunk and the sober, the macho and the not so much.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: The sparkle, the sparkle of everything. The energy that people transmitted in the show or on the stage, that’s what caught my attention. Because there can be many… Let’s say there can be ten people, but if just one of them has that sparkle of talent and charisma and personality, I mean, that makes all the difference.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Because, in case it hasn’t been made clear, these are not improvised shows. That is, they’re not a karaoke night where you write your name on a slip of paper and go up there and sing. No. The shows are an art form.

To begin with, there are several genres. There are the dance numbers, usually featuring tropical music or samba. This is the most demanding genre, the one that requires tremendous physical fitness from the performers, because if they drop the intensity of their dancing for even one second, they lose the audience’s attention and respect.

Then there’s the romantic genre: the tearjerker songs, the heartbreak and betrayal anthems, very Juan Gabriel or Paquita la del Barrio. Here what counts are the subtle gestures, the flirtatious glances at the audience, the elegance and class.

And finally, you have the dramatic numbers. In these, the performers act out the lyrics of the song as if they are living them in their own flesh. And to help their performance, they can bring all kinds of accessories and props — from confetti and nightstands to picture frames, decorated walls, and fans.

But the shows are also an art form because there are rules about what makes a good or a bad performance. There is an aesthetic. And that’s why there is a huge difference between beginners and masters — or, as Zuleyka calls them: «the old school.»

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: The old school will always put much more time, much more sacrifice, into a show than someone new. Because the new ones nowadays, mostly, it’s about throwing themselves on the floor, spinning around, and doing the splits. The old school doesn’t do that, but she focuses more on making you feel the song, on making sure you see her looking great, that she comes out polished, that she comes out neat in her costume.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But on top of that, the masters earn a tremendous amount of money in tips. And for someone newly arrived in the city, like Zuleyka, that was quite an attractive incentive.

She wanted to be on the stage, like Laura Martínez or Keyly Rosemberg. And she didn’t just want to shine like them — she also wanted to earn like them: fame and dollars. And so Zuleyka asked one of her friends from La Casa del Rostro to introduce her to one of the hosts at El Trio. And she gave her a chance.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: I remember I was nervous for the first show because I didn’t know if there would be anyone there.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The show was on a Thursday. Zuleyka stepped onto the stage wearing a borrowed wig and a borrowed dress.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: Back then I didn’t know how to do my own makeup. I went out on stage looking funny. And well, that was that — that was the first time.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She performed a ballad by the diva of divas.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: It was a Rocío Dúrcal song.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Zuleyka managed to win the audience over and the bar’s promoters invited her back for a second show.

That time she did a Celia Cruz song: «La negra tiene tumbao.» And it was then that she met the legendary Jesica Lafontaine, who we mentioned a moment ago, the one who had crowned Keyly back in 2018. And she told her:

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: That she had liked my show and that she liked how I looked because I looked very slender — tall, slim, and dark-skinned — and that the song had worked and that I danced beautifully. So she wanted me to be part of her group, or her family. And I said yes. And just like that I joined the Lafontaine family.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The Lafontaine family was one of the most prestigious in Queens. Joining them was a real honor.

This was January 2020. The pandemic shut down Roosevelt Avenue and the bars started organizing clandestine shows in private homes and basements. You could only attend by invitation.

And Zuleyka was part of them. That’s how her career began — underground.

And when the bars reopened on Roosevelt, Zuleyka — Zuleyka Lafontaine — already had a good reputation. That last name opened doors. And she took advantage of every opportunity she was given. If she had to perform every night for a week, she did it. That’s how badly she wanted to stand out.

All while she was still living in a migrant shelter, and all while doing sex work from time to time on the dating app Grindr to supplement her income.

It was around that time that she met Keyly Rosemberg. And Keyly captivated her with her provocative outfits and her irreverence.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: She is very authentic. She is very wild, to put it that way. You see her on the street and if it’s the first time you’re meeting, she starts right in with her antics, starts asking you things that maybe nobody has ever asked you before, but since she’s so bold, she just asks. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: About boyfriends, about sex, about sex work… She just was that overfamiliar.. And when Zuleyka found out they were from the same country — El Salvador — they became inseparable.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: And that’s where I got to know her better — that she is a really good person, that she would take the food out of her own mouth to give it to you.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Keyly would let her stay at her place, feed her, and also advise her on starting a new life in New York.

And so the months went by.

One night, at the bar El Trio, Jesica Lafontaine put on her signature show. It was called Noches de Aventurera and it was hugely famous — so much so that sometimes a competition by that name was organized, and the winner took home a crown.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: The Noches de Aventurera crown — a lot of girls fought for it, and it was like the ultimate crown, at that time, in the whole community.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In other words, winning it could establish your status as a performer.

But that night Jesica crowned Zuleyka. With no warning, no competition.

It was controversial. According to Zuleyka, some of Jesica’s other daughters weren’t too happy about it. Because in theory, several contestants would compete for that crown  — usually around 10 or 12. And it was won on the stage, through sweat and high heels. Not by being hand-picked. But Zuleyka didn’t care much.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: I was happy that they were recognizing in such a short time the artistry I had, because I was already being called to quite a few bars to perform.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And at each of those shows she could earn around 70 dollars in tips.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: Yes, as an Aventurera girl and also as Zuleyka Lafontaine, I’d go: everywhere I was invited. I’d go. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But at the same time Zuleyka was beginning to understand what it meant to belong to a family like Jesica Lafontaine’s.

Because when she had just arrived, with the girls from La Casa del Rostro, Zuleyka thought that the houses were just a little group to hang out with. But now, with Jesica, the family was becoming something more serious, with more obligations.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: And I was starting to realize that really, more than anything, it was mostly about helping the lady and being there in case she needed something, being like her chaperone. So I started not liking that.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But on top of that, Zuleyka was hearing rumors that sometimes Jesica took advantage of her daughters’ kindness and trust. That she expected absolute availability from them and would only do you a favor if you paid it back.

For the record, we reached out to Jesica in several ways to speak with her about this, but she never replied.

At first Zuleyka paid no attention to those rumors. But as time went on and she realized they were true, she started to feel uncomfortable.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: And I think that was what I was mostly waiting for — like, there’s a certain point at which you say, «OK, this is where it ends with her and I cut ties.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That moment came one night in mid-2021, in the form of a message from Laura Martínez.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: She reached out to me and said, «I want to crown you Revelation of the Year.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Revelation of the Year at the Roosevelt Avenue bars. Like being nominated for an Oscar for your first film. Laura continued:

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: «And it doesn’t matter that you have…» — because she’s always like that — «it doesn’t matter that you have that crown,» she says, «from Noches de Aventurera. I want to crown you as Revelation, because you deserve it.» So, «OK, let me think about it, because I have this crown and I don’t know what to do.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Because Laura and Jesica were rivals.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: They didn’t get along and couldn’t stand the sight of each other.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Both were hosts of their own shows on Roosevelt and competed for audiences and attention — and of course, they each had their vanities.

So accepting Laura’s crown meant snubbing Jesica Lafontaine’s crown. And her last name.

But at the same time, Zuleyka felt she deserved that new Revelation of the Year crown. She had spent months putting on unique shows — «burning herself out in the bars,» as she puts it — even risking audiences growing tired of her performances.

On top of that she was tired of being Jesica’s chaperone. And when she talked it over with Keyly, she also encouraged her to accept the crown. She even offered to take care of the dress.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: So she said, «if you’re going to accept the crown, come over to the house and find something to wear here, so you look beautiful at the coronation.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: So it was decided. Zuleyka said nothing to Jesica. She simply let Laura know she accepted.

The coronation took place at Lunas, a small bar on Roosevelt. Laura invited Zuleyka up to the stage. And there, just before placing the sash and the Revelation of the Year crown on her, Laura leaned into her ear and asked: How do you want me to introduce you?

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: «How do you want me to introduce you?» As Zuleyka Rosemberg. And that’s where Zuleyka Rosemberg was born.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Zuleyka Rosemberg. The answer came straight from her heart.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: Well, because I already felt… I already felt close to Keyly. I already felt like part of her.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It surprised everyone: Laura. And Keyly, who was there in the audience, applauding her, with her enormous smile.

When mother and daughter found each other at the end of the show, Keyly hugged Zuleyka and said: Welcome to the family.

A short break and we’ll be back.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’re back. Thi is Las Reinas de Queens.

Two days after being crowned Revelation of the Year, Zuleyka received a message from Jesica Lafontaine: she wanted her to return the Noches de Aventurera title.

Zuleyka agreed. She thanked Jesica for everything they had lived through together. But that was the end of their relationship. 

Zuleyka was now a Rosemberg. And with Keyly’s help she began something she had been thinking about for months: her transition.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: She encouraged me to want to become a trans girl. Because she told me, «OK, but being a girl on the outside opens a lot of doors for you. Love comes your way» — which isn’t true. But still, with her words I also started to see all of this. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Hormone therapy was difficult. She suffered from depression, anxiety, hunger, her hair was falling out… It was a cocktail of feelings she wasn’t sharing with anyone, not even with Keyly.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: And also, since I didn’t have a mental health professional either, it hit me hard.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But on top of that she had to put up with what other trans girls said about the changes that were beginning to show in her body — that her chest wasn’t big enough, that her hair was too short… Comments that felt like a straitjacket about how a trans woman was supposed to look.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: Because of that same prototype — that you’re not yet a complete woman unless you have breasts, hips, long hair.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They were hurtful, painful, and unfair words, but quite common.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: The trans community is very, very, very intense and can get to the point of being passive-aggressive with comments. That’s why a lot of girls sometimes halt their transition, or don’t go through with it, for that very reason. Because a lot of the time these comments come from girls who have already had surgery — they seem to forget that they went through the same thing too, and instead of helping the girls, they tear them down. And that’s what happened to me back then.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Zuleyka collapsed. She needed to escape from everything. She interrupted her treatment and cut her hair.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: And I decide to leave. I decide to get out of New York.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: At the time she was living at Keyly’s place, but on the day of her departure…

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: That day I knew she was home, but I didn’t… I didn’t want to bother her because she had already told me she wasn’t going to say goodbye.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Because Keyly had told her she’d rather not.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: I wanted to tell her that we’d see each other soon, that it wasn’t a forever goodbye, just a see-you-later.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Zuleyka went to Los Angeles. She worked in construction for three months. Then she went to Oakland, further north in California, and there she worked in a kitchen. She barely had any free time. Every now and then she talked with Keyly — they missed each other. But aside from that, she barely socialized.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: I never really went looking for more friendships…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She was afraid of being criticized and judged the way she had been in New York. They were months of deep loneliness.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: While going through these constant changes I couldn’t find my happiness. And being out there in California I realized that the only one who matters in this life is me, and no one else. I don’t have to be like everyone else in order to be happy, because I can be happy in my own way.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Zuleyka didn’t owe anyone any explanations. In California she decided she was going to resume her transition. She was going to be a trans woman on her own terms, regardless of what others said. But on top of that, she decided she would return to the place she missed most at that moment — where she had left her family: New York. She arrived in June, the day before Pride Day. And she went straight to Keyly’s house.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: She hugged me and we held each other and I said, «hi, how are you?» And we stood there hugging for about half a minute, and then she asked me how I’d been, why I hadn’t let her know. I wanted to surprise her.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That same night, Zuleyka went back to bar El Trio to perform a show. And the emcee of the evening welcomed her.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: The guy starts saying: «Oh, the one who had disappeared, a girl who has returned and come back stronger than ever. Ladies and gentlemen, Zuleyka Rosemberg.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Zuleyka performed the song «Mírame» — «Look at Me» — by Edith Márquez. She chose that song for its lyrics.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: «Look at me, I’m not the same as before. This smile is for someone I love to death. Look at me, it’s a pleasure to greet you, now that you live so sadly, and I’m so happy.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And yes, that night everyone looked at her. Zuleyka’s return filled the Rosemberg family with energy.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: The Rosembergs were the boom at some point  and everyone wanted to be a Rosemberg. We got to be 20 people.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: I had up to 20 kids.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Here’s Keyly again.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: There were trans girls and gay guys who dressed as women. The first thing was telling them, «look, our goal is this: here in the United States we have no family. Some guys fall into bad habits out of loneliness, out of stress. We want to have a different kind of dynamic, so we’re not alone.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But according to Zuleyka, many of those girls who claimed to be daughters were only there to take advantage of the family’s fame.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: At that moment we were the family of the year, so to speak. But little by little they each drifted away. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And the truth is that keeping a family like the Martínezes, or the Lafontaines, or the Rosembergs going…

[Keyly Rosemberg]: It is very hard. It is very hard to maintain a family in every sense of the word.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: To start with, the families of the Queens of Queens are born out of encounters between strangers. And that sometimes doesn’t work.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: Sometimes you have two kids who can’t stand each other and they’re siblings — they fight, and you have to step in and get in the middle of it.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Keyly has always tried to set boundaries around what is and isn’t allowed in her family. For example: she doesn’t care if her daughters use drugs or alcohol.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: It doesn’t bother me because I’m not their biological mother. So they should  have their own freedom too. And I’m not into the after-party. I’m not… And they are. They like to go out for drinks.  They’re young, they deserve it — as long as, I always tell them, they do it carefully, then go ahead, but don’t be calling me — and they all know this — don’t be calling me at five in the morning, at six in the morning, telling me something happened to them.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But she does care if her daughters misbehave at a club, where they socialize with other families. Embarrassing behavior can lead to a falling out.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: Two girls left me, and it really hurt. It broke my heart that they left for the same reason — because in my family there is discipline. And one of the rules I always had was that you had to behave when you go to a club. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Keyly talks about the balance between being a biological mother and a companion. But reaching that balance is hard.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: Because at the moment, you say… You really take on  the role of a biological mother. But then you say, «no, you can’t treat them that way because they’re not your child.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It has happened to Keyly several times that she has loved her children deeply only to watch them leave.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: That was one of my worst mistakes. Falling in love — not like, not as a partner, not like that… Loving them as if they were your own.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But that pain is offset by the satisfaction of watching her daughters on stage.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: Seeing a Rosemberg kid get up on that stage is like watching a real artist. I enjoy it, I live  it. I’m so nervous that something might fall off them, that something might go wrong, everything. I’m so nervous and I feel so happy.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That’s why she has accompanied Zuleyka through her entire rise as a queen. And she has encouraged her to go beyond Queens.

One day in 2023, Keyly invited Zuleyka to an event in Washington DC. A beauty pageant for the entire trans Latino community in the United States — something very different from the Roosevelt shows.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: Because each competition has its own way of scoring, its own way of competing, its own way of doing things and organizing.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: For example, there’s a category called swimsuit. Another category called question and answer. Another evening gown and interview. So there’s a panel of judges in the back scoring who does it best.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: It sounds very selfish, but within competitions, that’s how it is. The more sparkle you bring or the more feathers you bring — the more fabulous the outfit — the more people will love you, or the better the judges will score you.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: When Zuleyka saw the girls come out with their feathered pieces, their rhinestone gowns, with perfect make up, she knew she had to be up there.

So a year later, Zuleyka entered a competition: Miss Mundo Latina USA, in the New Comer participant group.

She trained for months for her talent number — a dance mix of several songs. And Keyly helped her with her dress.

And so the big night arrived in March 2025. Zuleyka went through each of the challenges: swimsuit, evening gown, talent…

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: I wasn’t expecting to win, but I wasn’t going to hold back either.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And the final challenge — question and answer.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: They asked me what had inspired me to want to participate. My answer was that first of all, more than anything, it was about inspiring people who were just starting out in this beautiful art of drag performance; and inspiring trans girls to know that not only gay guys can do this kind of thing, but that trans girls can do it too.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It was a smart and diplomatic answer. It was like a universal celebration of the artform she had been practicing ever since she arrived in New York. And when the moment came to announce the New Comer winners…

[Emcee]: Ladies and gentlemen, there was one single winner across all categories… 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They announced third place, then second. And then… 

[Emcee]: Please welcome the new Miss Mundo Latina USA New Comer, winner of swimsuit, talent, question and answer, and evening gown: Zuleyka Rosemberg!

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: «Ladies and gentlemen, Zuleyka Rosemberg!»… I couldn’t believe it.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She burst into tears. She never could have imagined she would experience something like this when she arrived in the United States. But on top of that, she was winning something far more valuable than a crown.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: I think this is very important for us because beyond empowering you, it makes you visible. Because we often see them on the street, maybe doing sex work or at home. But by entering this world, they don’t know whether they might be able to bring out the talent they have.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: As queen of the competition, Zuleyka has had to work for New York’s trans community — from handing out condoms to sex workers on Roosevelt Avenue to performing during the Queens Pride parade. Her title of Miss Mundo Latina USA Newcomer has come with responsibilities.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: Well, I have to use it for that — so people can see that they didn’t crown me just to crown me, but that they crowned me for a reason. And that reason is that I help, that I collaborate, that I’m there and present in the causes that deserve it.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Today she works at the Colectivo Intercultural Transgrediendo, one of the most important organizations in New York’s trans community. There she supports people who have just discovered they are HIV-positive. She can do that work because she herself carries the virus.

[Zuleyka Rosemberg]: Having HIV isn’t like a thought or a reference point that you’re going to die soon — it’s more like going back…  For me, personally, it’s like being reborn, like getting to live again. And there I give them examples of people who have had HIV for 40, 60 years and are still here.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: For a community so deeply affected by the HIV epidemic — one that watched almost an entire generation disappear because of the virus — these kinds of stories matter. They give hope.

And among all the queens of Queens, there was one whose stories did exactly that: drew a line connecting the past, the present, and the future.

A queen whose stories became a balm and an energizer for a community still in mourning over the death of Lorena Borjas.

A woman who was destined to become the new queen of all queens: Cecilia Gentili. Santa Cecilia. The mother of all whores.

Las Reinas de Queens is a podcast from Central, the series channel of Radio Ambulante Studios, and is part of the My Cultura podcast network on iHeartRadio.

This series was produced by Diego Senior and Pablo Argüelles, with additional production and reporting by Nikol Pizarro, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanin.

The editors were Daniel Alarcón, Silvia Viñas, and me.

Fact-checking by Bruno Scelza and Nikol Pizarro.

María Linares did the sound design and mixing, as well as the original music.

The series’ graphic design and art direction are by Diego Corzo.

Product development for Las Reinas de Queens was led by Natalia Ramírez. Digital production was carried out by Ana María Betancourt and Óscar Luna.

Business development and strategic partnerships were led by Camilo Jiménez Santofimio. Julián Santos and Eric Spiegelman provided legal support.

Las Reinas de Queens is an original idea by Diego Senior, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanin.

The executive producers are Diego Senior; and from Radio Ambulante Studios, our CEO, Carolina Guerrero.

At iHeart, the executive producers are Arlene Santana and Leo Gomez.

Part of the funding for this project was provided by the Greater Good Science Center at the University of California, Berkeley, as part of their «Spreading Love Through Media» initiative, with support from the John Templeton Foundation.

You can follow us on social media at centralseriesRA and subscribe to our newsletter at centralpodcast.audio.

I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz. Thank you for listening.

Este podcast es propiedad de Radio Ambulante Studios. Cualquier copia, distribución o adaptación está expresamente prohibida sin previa autorización.

This podcast is the property of Radio Ambulante Studios. Any copy, distribution, or adaptation is expressly prohibited without prior authorization.

***

2 | Welcome to Casa Martínez

Bienvenides a la Casa Martínez

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Hello, a warning before we begin: this series contains sensitive content including violence, drugs, and sexual language. We recommend discretion.

In the days and weeks following the death of Lorena Borjas, one word that was used over and over to define her: “mother.” “The mother of the entire Latin trans community of Queens.” That’s what they called her in obituaries, and articles, and tributes. And this way of referring to her was not a coincidence, because mothers are extremely important in the world of Las Reinas de Queens.

They are the backbone, the glue. And they are the leaders of the various families that make up the Latin trans community of Queens. Chosen families, because they have often been rejected by their own. These families live together and support each other and also compete in bars along Roosevelt Avenue, in impersonation shows and beauty pageants and trans organizations in New York.

Mothers define the rules and traditions of those families. But, whats more: they give them their last names.

[Laura Martínez]: So, of the two last names I remember from before, when I had just arrived, I say that it’s the Duval family and the St. Cartier family. Later on, after the Martínez, new families were born..

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And those last names are legendary.

[Laura Martínez]: The Santa María family began, for example. There were families like Las Chacalosas. There was also the family of the newer ones, the Rosemberg. Maybe for other people it’s different, but for me, a last name, in the family, is protection. It is help, it is support. It says: you are not alone.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She is Laura Martínez. And what we’re going to tell you today is how she formed her own family, one of the most emblematic of Las Reinas de Queens. A family forged in the clubs of Roosevelt Avenue.

There, in impersonation shows and beauty pageants, among sequined dresses, 4-inch heels, cascades of glitter, lots of tequila, to the sound of Gloria Trevi, Laura León, and Alejandra Guzmán, girls newly arrived from all over Latin America began to ask Laura for advice. They wanted to be performers like her, to look good on stage, to begin their transitions.

[Laura Martínez]: So I can help the kids by giving them a wig, an outfit. The outfits I no longer used I would give to them or lend to them. Shoes I no longer used, I would give to them.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura helped them: to shape their bodies with padding and foam; she gave them advice; she lent them her address for bureaucratic procedures; and she even mediated with their biological families. 

[Laura Martínez]: I talk to their mothers when they don’t want to accept them. And I start telling their moms: “you have to help, you are hurting your daughter.”

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She also welcomed the girls into her rococo apartment, decorated with gold-framed mirrors, imitation tapestries, portraits of the virgin in fake gold. That is her sanctuary. And there she has been a host for years.

[Laura Martínez]: We would get together every week at the house to eat together, to cook food for them, some tamales. And that’s how I showed the others what it means to live together. It wasn’t just part of the show, or part of the clubs, or part of pageants or part… Everything was material. But it wasn’t integration.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And when the girls had nowhere else to stay, Laura invited them to sleep at the apartment.

[Laura Martínez]: The living room was full at night. You would see them there, all piled up sleeping on the rug. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Over time, the girls sheltered by Laura began to see her not only as a protector and an inspiration, but as a mother. And they began to shed their old last names.

[Laura Martínez]: They would say to me, “hey, can I take your last name? It’s to thank you. If you would do me the honor.” I say, “yes, of course.” They start taking the last name Martínez. And that’s when I understood that the family would start there. That’s how my family began.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The Martínez family.

[Fonsi Martínez]: Fonsi Martínez, 37.

[Romina Martínez]: Romina Martínez, 27 years old.

[Quintanil Martínez]: Quintanil Martínez, 21 years old.

[Carolina Martínez]: Carolina Martínez, 24 years old.

[Cari Martínez]: Cari Martínez, 31 years old.

[Carolina Martínez]: Well, in the family I am a new member. I’m the new one, the new one. I am very grateful to mother Laura because she opened the doors for me. When I arrived here…

[Romina Martínez]: So I asked for help and they recommended who is now my mother that I have here, where I feel very much at ease. Very happy, content. Like a family that I have very far away and well nothing here…

[Cari Martínez]: But the best thing that ever happened to me is having arrived here to the United States and meeting my mother, Laura, whom I’ve been telling you about, since I knew of her, from the country where I lived, in Chile, I would see her events, her shows, because she is very famous. And now being here is fulfilling a dream.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura says she has had more than 50 daughters, who have come in and out of her home, over the decades she has been working in Queens.

The Martínez family is famous for its impersonation and singing shows. Performances that also heal wounds. The connection between Laura Martínez and her chosen daughters was not the result of chance.

It was born from a vital need: to let go of the families that were imposed on them and create another one, their own. Because her story is not just hers. It is the reflection of many—perhaps all—undocumented Latina trans women who arrive in New York searching for much more than a refuge. Laura has turned her last name, the Martínez last name, into a way to radically fight back pain. 

From Central Series and Radio Ambulante Studios, this is Las Reinas de Queens. I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz. Episode 2. Welcome to Casa Martínez.

When she was a child, Laura helped her mother clean the house and prepare food for her siblings. And while they did it, her mother would turn on a yellow and silver radio that she had bought in installments.

[Laura Martínez]: Well, you know that she really liked all that romantic-trio music she had. She loved it. She loved the trio Los Panchos. She loved to listen to Sonia López.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And Laura did too. The voices that came out of the radio seemed to lift her up as if she were an artist on a small stage.

[Laura Martínez]: I would grab one of my mom’s scarves, I would put it on my head, I would wrap it around and grab a brush, a comb. And that was my microphone. And I would start lip syncing the song. I would grab my broom, I would dance and give myself to it and I liked it. And life felt lighter.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The world around her disappeared: her little body, her old and patched clothes, her house with dirt floors. And for a second she would also forget that little town where she was born in 1963: Papantla.

[Laura Martínez]: That’s where vanilla is cultivated. That’s why they say: the city that scents the  world is Papantla, Veracruz.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But for people like her, that tropical, mountainous place, so close to the sea was, above all, hostile.

[Laura Martínez]: Families were traditional, provincial; a man is a man, a woman is a woman. So Papantla was always a marginalization.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura’s parents gave her a boy’s name. But she never felt comfortable either with that name or with her body.

[Laura Martínez]: I felt like a girl, completely.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura was the odd one out. And because of that they mistreated her, at school, at home. Especially her older brother.

[Laura Martínez]: He would hit me and marginalize me and point at me and yell at me and whisper to my ear: “Shut up, you faggot, joto.”

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The only one capable of standing up to these abuses was Laura’s father. A loving man who —something unusual for the time— was able to understand that Laura was different. But he died when Laura was six years old. From that moment she hardly had anyone else who understood her. Until at 11 years old she met Juana.

[Laura Martínez]: Everyone called her Juana La Loca. That’s the nickname they had given her in the neighborhood. It was forbidden. My mom would say, “don’t go, don’t talk to her.” But secretly, I’d do it. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Juana was a trans girl. She was in her twenties, and worked in a cantina.

[Laura Martínez]: I started getting close and she would ask if I liked dresses, wigs, or I liked makeup, I said “I would like to.” Then she says, “do you want to become a woman? Take a pill.” And she would give me a pill.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She gave her Premarin, a medicine to restore estrogen levels during menopause. Juana didn’t seem to care about treating a minor like that. Today, Laura justifies her like this:

[Laura Martínez]: She wanted me to be like her, because it was a rejection that she had and needed… It’s like when you have a team and you need someone to join so you’re not so alone too.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Juana also started dressing Laura as a girl. She would do her makeup, put a wig on her, put foam on her hips and padding on her chest. And like that she would take her to the cantinas on the outskirts of Papantla. There Laura danced for the ranchers for a few pesos that she would then bring home.

[Laura Martínez]: My mom would say to me: where is this money coming from? So I would make up that…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That she had earned those coins shining shoes, selling gum, newspapers and lemons. That went on for almost a year. Until one afternoon, Juana and Laura ran late at a ranch. And they couldn’t miss the last bus back to Papantla.

[Laura Martínez]: So we ran. I didn’t have time to undress, remove my makeup, take off my wig and my little pads that I had on my body.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The bus dropped her off near home. Laura ran and went in through the kitchen, quietly.

[Laura Martínez]: But I didn’t know that my mom was there waiting for me, because it was already late. And she looks at me and is shocked and starts to cry. And she says, “what is this? Why are you doing this to me?” And I said, “to earn money, to help you.” And she says, “no, no, no, no, no, it can’t be.”

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It was the first time her mother had seen her dressed as a woman.

[Laura Martínez]: She didn’t want to touch me. I tried to hold her and she rejected me. She could see in her mind the path I had chosen and the suffering that lay ahead, because later I understood that when someone hurt me, she was the one who suffered most. But at 11, at 12 years old, I didn’t understand that.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura didn’t understand either the decision her mother made at that moment: she put her on a bus and sent her to live with her uncle Juan Ignacio in Mexico City.

[Laura Martínez]: He turned out to be the monster, right? But for me it was good at first. Mexico helped me psychologically because people didn’t point at you or judge you.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The anonymity of the city protected her. At her new school no one hit her. Her brothers weren’t there. And on top of that, her uncle, who loved the arts, opened up a whole new world for her.

[Laura Martínez]: I would go to the Palacio de Bellas Artes, which I loved. He taught me what a zarzuela was, what an opera was, an operetta. All that glamour fascinated me, I loved it. He rented a private box. Can you imagine? He had money.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Juan Ignacio gave her gifts. He was the father Laura had lost, the one who took care of her. Until he wasn’t. 

[Laura Martínez]: It was in the early morning that he would rape me. At first I resisted, I tried to resist, but he would beat me badly with a belt.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura didn’t speak about this with anyone, not even with her mother. The resentment Laura felt toward her for having sent her to Mexico was deep, and the relationship between the two was broken. On top of that, Laura also thought that if she told her mother anything, she wouldn’t believe her. After all, Juan Ignacio was family. So she endured it until she was 17, and with some saved pesos, she escaped.

[Laura Martínez]: So I go to the border. I want to change my life. And you always think it’s going to be beautiful.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: A short break and we’ll be back.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’re back on Las Reinas de Queens.

After fleeing Mexico City, Laura lived a couple of years in Matamoros, a city on the border with Texas. There she worked as a taco vendor to survive.

She also began her transition. But at first it was very hard for her to show herself as she truly was.

[Laura Martínez]: I was very self-conscious. I was afraid of people.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She didn’t speak much, she hid her voice.

[Laura Martínez]: My little mustache still showed. I was ashamed to go out on the street without makeup.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But opposing that shame was a desire she had carried since childhood: to be an artist. So, in a club in Matamoros, she began putting on impersonation shows — lip-syncing to songs.

[Laura Martínez]: When you’re an impersonator, you watch the artist on television. I would learn their hand movements, their mouth movements, their body movements.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura didn’t only imitate the movements of the artists. She also began building herself a new body.

[Laura Martínez]: It looked super natural on me, but it wasn’t. It was a fake body.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura would pad her hips, calves, buttocks, and chest.

[Laura Martínez]: It was material used for upholstering furniture or cushions.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And on top of that she wore five pairs of stockings. She called that fake body «the doll.»

[Laura Martínez]: And I longed to have a natural body, that was your dream, it was your goal, it was the hopes you built up in your head.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But she also longed to leave the artistic world of Matamoros behind, because she had outgrown it. Until a colleague told her about the ideal place to really grow:

[Laura Martínez]: So she tells me, «come over, there are more places to work here where you can develop more artistically and spread your wings.» So I go to Guadalajara. In 1989, at La Malinche, which was a very well-known club, I made my debut as the one and only Manoella Torres.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Manoella Torres, an American singer of Puerto Rican origin. Laura performed her song «Ahora que soy libre» — «Now That I Am Free.»

[Laura Martínez]: I cry when I perform that song. I feel it, I live it, and I make the audience feel it too. So I truly won the crowd over.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura’s career began that night. They hired her at La Malinche. She was inspired. And she began impersonating other artists. But one night at La Malinche, just as the show was getting started…

[Laura Martínez]: The manager came running in, very excited, and told me, «hey, you look a lot like Laura León.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura León, a very famous Mexican actress and singer.

[Laura Martínez]: Her music was very catchy, very danceable, and people liked her, they loved her. She was always the one who livened up the shows.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And for exactly that reason, the manager of La Malinche asked Laura to impersonate her and lip-sync to her songs.

[Laura Martínez]: And when I did Laura León, I brought the house down. It was a total success. And that is when I decided to take the name Laura.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: So great was Laura’s success — our Laura — that a club in Tijuana, in Baja California, offered her her own show for twice the money.

[Laura Martínez]: And that’s how I arrived in Tijuana. I opened with the song «Suavecito,» which was already a hit. I got to open wearing a red dress with mittens — I’ll never forget it, it was my debut. I remember I started with my back turned to the audience. Then I turned around… And the crowd just went, «wow.» I mean, people wouldn’t even let me sing or dance, because they were lining up to give me tips. And I was like, «oh my God.» My dress filled up so much that there was no more room for all the tips they were giving me.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura’s life changed completely. She had the admiration of the public, a big house, enough money to start investing in her transition therapy. And she also had a new family. Accompanying her in her shows was a small company of dancers and backup singers, most of them trans. They were called las fenómenos — the phenomena.

[Laura Martínez]: We all lived in the same house, and when we went to work, they rode in my car. The van was packed full. All of us together, and we all came back home together. I mean, it was a group, but it was also more like family, you know? Because we were together every single day.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But she also found something invaluable that she had been searching for for a long time. After years of having barely any relationship with her mother, Laura convinced her to fly to Tijuana from Veracruz. And it was from her most natural state — the stage — that Laura was able to show herself to her mother in full shine, being her true self, as she had never been able to do so before.

[Laura Martínez]: When I walked out onto the stage, she stood up and hugged me. And it was very moving, very moving, because the whole audience stood up too, and I felt this beautiful warmth. And my mother said to me, «I love you, you are my pride. And I’d always want to be by your side to protect you, because,» she told me, «if there was ever a day you felt rejected, I always wanted to protect you and be with you always.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The reconciliation with her mother brought Laura an immense sense of peace. Perhaps for the first time in her life, she felt whole. But between 2000 and 2001, Laura suffered several blows that destabilized her. She lost her mother to a heart attack. She fell into a depression. She began to neglect herself. And on top of that, three girls from her company were accused of assaulting a minor — something that turned out to be false. But the damage was already done.

[Laura Martínez]: I start losing my shelter. After having a big house, we move into a small, ugly place, and we all crowd in together. And I didn’t want to give up the show.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura had to complement her income some other way. Fear and the responsibility she felt toward her group — her family — pushed her to seek a drastic solution. Something she perhaps never would have dared to do if her mother were still alive.

[Laura Martínez]: I start doing sex work because I no longer have money to pay my employees, my girls, my dancers.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: During the week Laura worked on the street and at a hotel, and on weekends she performed her show. Until, soon after, an offer came her way that could change her situation: one of her dancers told her that a woman named Argelia was looking for impersonators to perform shows in New York.

[Laura Martínez]: So I tell her, «honey, tell her to give me a chance. Tell her to take me for just a couple of months, as long as she can. I need to save up money. I’m never going to save money here.» So she talks to her and she sets one condition: «I want her tomorrow.» Okay. It was my birthday and I decided to leave the next day. We had a farewell dinner celebrating my birthday, and on August 21st, 2003, I was off to New York.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura flew on a tourist visa. When she arrived in New York, nobody picked her up at the airport. She took a taxi and showed the driver the address Argelia had given her.

On the way into Manhattan, the city she saw through the window didn’t surprise her. Not the big highways, not the bridges over the river. Not even the skyscrapers. New York was simply a means to an end. Laura’s plan was to perform for two or three months, earn a lot of money, and then go back to Mexico to put her show together.

With that mindset, she walked into Argelia’s apartment.

[Laura Martínez]: And it was a very beautiful place, carpeted. Lots of things, antiques. And I meet Argelia for the first time. Heavy-set, with enormous, huge breasts, and she leads me into the living room. And the first thing she says to me: «Take your clothes off.» And I just… «Yes, take your clothes off.» And she made me take off all my clothes.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Strange, uncomfortable, yes. But not enough to discourage her. By then, Laura already felt much more at ease with her body. So she took off her clothes, Argelia looked her over and said:

[Laura Martínez]: «Oh, you have a beautiful body. Perfect. Get dressed.» And she says, «we’re going to take you. You’re going to start working right now.» «Right now?» I said. «What about my costumes?» «No! Just grab two changes of clothes. We’re taking you to apartment 530 on 47th Street, apartment 4B, on the West Side.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: On the West Side, on the other side of Manhattan. Argelia’s helpers took her to that apartment. It was elegant too. Everything was red: the furniture, the curtains, the rugs. There were other women and trans girls there, about 20 of them.

[Laura Martínez]: And they told me, «take your clothes off because they’re going to sell you.» «They’re going to sell me?» «Yes, they’re going to sell you.» And then I realized this wasn’t about a show. I felt so small. I wanted to run. I was left speechless. But my mind kept asking: what am I doing here? What is happening?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura had become a victim of a human trafficking network. They took her passport and her visa. And they began sexually exploiting her immediately, with exhausting schedules. Always in the apartment. There, she and the other women would see clients.

Argelia did pay her, but the money didn’t go far. They wouldn’t let her go out anywhere except the Mexican corner store next to the building. Asking for help wasn’t an option either. Her captors watched her constantly. And on top of that, they frightened her: they told her the police could throw her in jail.

[Laura Martínez]: It was traumatic, you know? Because I thought, «well, we’re prisoners here, locked up.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura spent several months like that, always thinking about how to escape. The first thing she did was bribe one of her captors with a thousand dollars to get her passport and visa back. Then, with her documents in hand, she waited.

Laura remembers that the chance to escape came one afternoon in July 2004, eleven months after arriving in New York. Her captors came rushing into the apartment and told them:

[Laura Martínez]: «Grab your stuff and let’s go. Now.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Someone had reported them to the police.

[Laura Martínez]: I mean, everything happened so fast. There was fear, dread, anguish.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And chaos. And Laura took advantage of it.

[Laura Martínez]: The first thing I said: my papers, my things, my money, because I had money.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And while all the other girls were running downstairs and out into the street…

[Laura Martínez]: «Hurry up, hurry up.» I quickly ran inside…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She ducked into the Mexican corner store. And there she asked the man in charge for help. De was Mexican too.

[Laura Martínez]: And I said to the man, «please,» I told him, «I am being held captive,» I said. And he helped me, and said, «this way.» And he led me through a courtyard, through a garden where the trash is thrown out, behind the buildings. He took me in and said, «don’t make a sound.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: A short break and we’ll be back.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’re back on Las Reinas de Queens.

Laura hid for hours. That night the Mexican store owner came and told her everything was quiet. The captors had gone and the police hadn’t shown up either. After 11 months of suffering, Laura was free.

[Laura Martínez]: And to help my family, I decided to stay.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And she set out to find what she had really come to New York for.

[Laura Martínez]: Where can I find a show? So the Mexican guy says, «head to Queens, that’s where the Mexican community is.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Laura took the subway to Queens. She arrived at Roosevelt Avenue.

[Laura Martínez]: I started walking, looking around, seeing that there was food, there were street vendors, shops, and everyone was speaking Spanish, and I felt right at home. And there I started asking around where there were drag shows, you know? And I started knocking on doors. It wasn’t easy. It took months of asking for auditions.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She did it at the Music Box, at Lucho’s, at the Atlantis. It was at those clubs where she got her first opportunity to impersonate Laura León. It was there where she began to be a mentor to so many girls, as we heard at the beginning of this episode. And it was also there where she crossed paths for the first time with Lorena Borjas, the mother of all mothers.

[Laura Martínez]: I saw her for the first time standing there with her little bag full of condoms to hand out. She said to me, «I just love your show, how admirable, you look so much like Laura.» And she started telling me, «I need you. You have that voice. You have that charisma. People follow you. I can’t speak in public. I get embarrassed. The microphone scares me. I want you to help me.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Lorena asked Laura to invite the audience during her shows to pick up condoms and get tested for HIV. And she agreed.

[Laura Martínez]: Our first HIV tests at a club were at Atlantis, in my dressing room, with nothing but black curtains. First we did one, one little module, then it became two and then three.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: There, immersed in the nightlife of Queens, between art and solidarity, Laura finally noticed what had been obvious all along: she had found her family.

More than twenty years after arriving in New York, Laura has today shaped a family based on her own experience. And she has welcomed so many daughters into her home that over the years she has watched them build their own lives.

And they all proudly carry the last name Martínez.

[Romina Martínez]: Romina Martínez, 27 years old.

[Quintanil Martínez]: Quintanil Martínez, 21 years old.

[Carolina Martínez]: Carolina Martínez, 24 years old.

[Cari Martínez]: Cari Martínez, 31 years old.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They have all also experienced one of Laura’s shows firsthand. And well, to give you a better sense of it — one night in 2024, Diego, our producer and reporter, accompanied Laura to one of her shows. Laura picked him up in her Toyota SUV.

In the car were some of the materials Laura uses to work her magic: a huge mirror, a lone pink shoe, a plastic crown on the back seat, and a pair of sheer stockings, already worn.

[Diego Senior]: Dear Laura, where are you performing tonight, where is your show tonight?

[Laura Martínez]: Tonight I’m heading to El Trio Bar. That’s where I work on Mondays. I’m celebrating 20 years of my Spicy Mondays. And the shows are at two in the morning in Queens. The venues close at four in the morning. That time was set because before they were starting at one in the morning. But here’s the thing — venues in Manhattan close at midnight, so a lot of people from the LGBTQ community work as waiters, as bartenders in Manhattan, in restaurants. So those working people come to Queens, to the clubs, to have fun.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They tend to be migrants who offer crumpled dollar bills — probably the tips they earned during the day.

[Laura Martínez]: That’s why a lot of people think it’s late, but the people coming from Manhattan are just getting off work, and they’re the ones who, uh—

[Diego Senior]: Brenda is calling you. Brenda is calling, answer.

[Laura Martínez]: Hello!

[Brenda]: Hi, beautiful sister. Sorry to bother you with this. Is La Patrona on Friday and My Second House on Saturday, or are they both on the same day?

[Laura Martínez]: No, no, no, no, no. Friday — I told you, La Patrona is Friday, and Saturday is…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Brenda is a friend of Laura’s; they’ve known each other for about twenty years. She also has her own shows and is one of the few who doesn’t lip-sync — she actually sings. Diego took the chance to ask her for a sample of her talent. He asked Brenda if she knew the song «Hacer el amor con otro» by Alejandra Guzmán.

[Brenda]: “Amanecer con él a mi costado no es igual que estar contigo…”

[Diego Senior]: Oh, bravo!

[Brenda]: “No es que esté mal, ni hablar. Pero le falta madurar, es casi un niño…” 

[Diego Senior]: Wow. Bravo! Spot on!

[Laura Martínez, at El Trio]: We’re going to have a great time tonight, aren’t we? So welcome, enjoy your evening, have a wonderful time. Let’s have fun!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: El Trio is on the second floor of a Mexican restaurant next to a forgotten auto repair shop, near Roosevelt Avenue in Queens. The bar is dark, with a damp smell, a sticky counter from all the spilled tequila and beer, mirrors and lights, rickety chairs and torn cushions.

Laura already knows by heart how to execute each of her shows — from impersonating Laura León to being the host, the one who welcomes the audience and entertains them between other performers’ numbers. Because that is what Laura is: a hostess. With a spicy touch.

[Laura Martínez]: I bring in Mexican cheekiness, double meanings… You have to have the grace to do it so the person doesn’t take offense. So, calling a heavy-set woman heavy, but without making her feel bad — like saying, «oh honey, who did you eat?» I mean. And people laugh. Little things like that. Or to some skinny guy over there I’ll say, «and you, sweetheart, you haven’t eaten, have you? Someone’s going to eat you up. Come here, I’ll feed you. Come on, I’ve got my girls.»

[Laura Martínez, at El Trio]: Hey cousin, Is the cousin hot or is she not?  She’s delicious, she’s tasty. To hell with it. It doesn’t count if you’re related

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That night the celebration was flawless. But as we said at the beginning of this episode, Laura’s is not the only family among the Queens of Queens. One night, some time later, Diego was at another party.

[Diego Senior]: Excuse me, who is she?

[Rosemberg daughter]: Kylie Rosemberg.

[Diego Senior]: And she is…?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: A party where other daughters support other mothers.

[Rosemberg daughter]: She does activism with us at the Collective. She joins us in the activities and everything. She’s very well known in the celebrity scene, in the shows, in the bars and all that. And she’s the matriarch of a group, a family. You know that within our community we do what’s called chosen families. Because our…

[Diego Senior]: Like the house…

[Rosemberg daughter]: Because our families sometimes reject us, so we seek out our own group. And she is the mother of… Well, she would be my mother in the scene and the mother of Zuleyka Rosemberg.

[Diego Senior]: From her house, Rosemberg.

[Rosemberg daughter]: Yes, I mean she has supported us. At one point I was in need and she reached out and helped me…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And indeed, Casa Rosemberg and Casa Martínez are part of a long list of last names and families: St. Cartier, Duval, Lafontaine, Chacalosas… Each last name, each family, is a kingdom, with its own laws and traditions. And its battles.

[Laura Martínez]: That has always been, is, and always will be — the competition. I can tell you: Kylie Rosemberg and I say today that we are sisters. But if our daughters are going to compete, then we forget about being friends or sisters. May the best one win. Whether I’m talking about a St. Cartier or a Martínez Cabrera, or Smith or other families — if you don’t go in with the mindset to win, you won’t do anything right.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Because in this world divided between the shows and the street, standing out is an unstoppable desire. And every step, always forward, is a reaffirmation of the right to exist in the face of rejection.

We are entering a fierce and brilliant universe. That is where the Queens of Queens live.

Las Reinas de Queens is a podcast from Central, the series channel of Radio Ambulante Studios, and is part of the My Cultura podcast network on iHeartRadio.

This series was produced by Diego Senior and Pablo Argüelles, with additional production and reporting by Nikol Pizarro, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanin.

The editors were Daniel Alarcón, Silvia Viñas, and me.

Fact-checking by Bruno Scelza and Nikol Pizarro.

María Linares did the sound design and mixing, as well as the original music.

The series’ graphic design and art direction are by Diego Corzo.

Product development for Las Reinas de Queens was led by Natalia Ramírez. Digital production was carried out by Ana María Betancourt and Óscar Luna.

Business development and strategic partnerships were led by Camilo Jiménez Santofimio. Julián Santos and Eric Spiegelman provided legal support.

Las Reinas de Queens is an original idea by Diego Senior, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanin.

The executive producers are Diego Senior; and from Radio Ambulante Studios, our CEO, Carolina Guerrero.

At iHeart, the executive producers are Arlene Santana and Leo Gomez.

Part of the funding for this project was provided by the Greater Good Science Center at the University of California, Berkeley, as part of their «Spreading Love Through Media» initiative, with support from the John Templeton Foundation.

You can follow us on social media at centralseriesRA and subscribe to our newsletter at centralpodcast.audio.

I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz. Thank you for listening.


This podcast is the property of Radio Ambulante Studios. Any copy, distribution, or adaptation is expressly prohibited without prior authorization.

Este podcast es propiedad de Radio Ambulante Studios. Cualquier copia, distribución o adaptación está expresamente prohibida sin previa autorización.

This podcast is the property of Radio Ambulante Studios. Any copy, distribution, or adaptation is expressly prohibited without prior authorization.

1 | Saint, Mother, Queen

Santa, Madre, Reina

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Hello, a warning before we begin: this series contains sensitive content including violence, drugs, and sexual language. We recommend discretion.

Alexa was 28 years old. She lived on the streets of San Juan, Puerto Rico. She used to wander through the neighborhoods of the capital with a mirror in her hand. It was said she used it to make sure no one was following her.

Not much was known about her. Some believed her family had kicked her out of the house and that she suffered from some type of mental illness.

On the afternoon of Sunday, February 23, 2020, she went into a women’s restroom at a McDonald’s in San Juan. Some people took photos of her.

On social media, a rumor spread that a man dressed as a woman was using a mirror to spy on women in the bathroom. Some said something needed to be done.

Early the next morning, Alexa’s body was found in an empty lot in San Juan. She had been shot multiple times.

[Archival audio, news report]: And now we go to Puerto Rico where they are searching for the relatives of the transgender woman who was shot and abandoned.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The news of the brutal murder of Alexa, a trans woman, spread across the island and around the world.

[Archival audio, news report]: The FBI could come in and open a hate crime investigation but they haven’t done so so far. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Protests were organized. Even Bad Bunny spoke out.

[Archival audio, news report]: And the artist wore a shirt with the message: «They killed Alexa, not a man in a skirt.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Being trans in Latin America means having a life expectancy of no more than 35 years.

In 2020, the year of Alexa’s murder, our region was one of the most dangerous in the world for trans people.

And that is why, a few days after her death, and thousands of kilometers away, in the city of New York, a group of Latin trans women decided to organize a vigil in her honor. It was as if a sister or a daughter had been killed. Or as if they themselves had been killed.

[Woman at vigil]: We are all Alexas. We all think they’re going to come after us because we’re trans. I’m afraid to walk around, even in a city that’s supposed to be safe.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The vigil was organized by the Puerto Rican trans community in New York. Women from many other Latin American countries joined in. They were trans, undocumented, and in many cases, also sex workers.

[Liaam Winslet]: Long live trans activism!

[Women at protest]: Down with the patriarchy!

[Liaam Winslet]: Because they were taken alive!

[Women at protest]: We want them alive!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That night, in a small park on Roosevelt Avenue, in the Jackson Heights neighborhood of the borough of Queens, beneath the elevated subway tracks, around 50 people gathered.

Among them was a trans woman. Her name was Lorena. Nearly 60 years old, Mexican.

Lorena was perhaps the person with the greatest authority and prestige there, but that night she remained silent, listening in the front row to her companions — or, as she called them, her pájaras.

[Liaam Winslet]: It’s very important that we understand this work concerns all of us — it’s not just a matter for Puerto Rican women, Black women, or Latinas. It’s a matter of coming together as a trans community. Regardless of our skin color. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The one speaking is Liaam Winslet, also trans, Ecuadorian.

[Liaam Winslet]: I remember we had had a protest here in front of the office, in the little park here.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Liaam and Lorena were close friends, colleagues, and fellow activists. If anyone knew how important Lorena was to the Latin trans community of New York, it was Liaam.

[Liaam Winslet]: Well, she was the… We always say the mother of Queens, the queen of Queens, but she was always the queen here — so she’s like this queen of the Jackson Heights area.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: A queen, yes, but also a companion, with no need to be the center of attention — like that cold night in Queens.

[Liaam Winslet]: I remember that was the last action we did where Lorena was present. The whole community was together. And we had already heard, a few days, a few weeks before, that there was a situation with a virus going around. But we were like, «oh, it’ll never get here. That’s not going to happen, and so on.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That virus was Covid-19, the coronavirus.

[Cristina Herrera]: I think it was around the end of February. I don’t remember exactly, because I’ve blocked that period from my mind because it was very hard.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: This is Cristina Herrera, also trans, born in El Salvador, and one of Lorena’s closest friends.

[Cristina Herrera]: I would tell her, «Lorenita, try not to go out too much, try not to…» Because she used to go visit a lot of girls in the community.

[Archival audio, news report]: The city has become a ghost city, but the number of infections and deaths continues to rise.

[Cristina Herrera]: And she would tell me yes, that she was going to see less people and so on. But Lorena was always very generous, and so she kept on doing her outreach work like that.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The thing is, Lorena was irreplaceable. No one had protected the community the way she had for so many years.

[Liaam Winslet]: I remember she said to me, «pájara, this situation is really hard,» because some of the girls had already called her to tell her they had also tested positive for COVID. She told me, «Liaam, we have to do something to help the pájaras, because a lot of them don’t have food. Some of them are worried. Some don’t want to go out because they’re scared.»

[Archival audio, news report]: The death toll in the state of New York has doubled in just three days. Doctors are overwhelmed and alarmed by the rapid spread of the virus.

[Liaam Winslet]: A few days later Lorena told me, «Liaam, I feel sick. I’m running a fever. I have a sore throat, my body aches.» And I was like, «what? I mean, how are you, what are you feeling?» She says, «it’s this, I’m feeling it, I’ve already had a temperature for about two days,» and so on. I told her, «well, let’s go to the hospital.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Meanwhile, other friends were keeping a close eye on her.

[Liaam Winslet]: They would call me saying, «Liaam, what’s happening with Lorena? She told us she’s in bad shape. We haven’t heard from her. What happened?»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But neither Liaam nor Cristina knew exactly what had happened to her.

[Liaam Winslet]: We were only told: she was transferred. But nobody knew where — we didn’t know where they had taken her. The ambulance had moved her to another hospital, but nobody knew which hospital.

[Cristina Herrera]: We couldn’t find her. We didn’t know where she was, which medical system she was in.

[Liaam Winslet]: So among all of us it was like, «look, there’s no way. How can we? Someone who can go and ask.» Nobody wanted to go out. There was total fear. And going to the hospital was pointless because they weren’t going to let you in. So there was a very, very great concern. We didn’t know where to go or what to do.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: What will we do without Lorena?

In the midst of the chaos and fear of the pandemic, that was the question her friends kept asking themselves as they searched for her.

And this is the question we will try to answer over the next 10 episodes.

When a group of women with so much stacked against them loses their adoptive mother, their greatest advocate, their queen — how do they carry on?

From Central Series and Radio Ambulante Studios, this is Las Reinas de Queens. I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz. Episode 1. Saint, Mother, Queen.

There are so many recordings of Lorena Borjas: Lorena on the news, Lorena at marches, and Lorena at community talks with trans women in New York.

But here we’re going to start with a more intimate Lorena.

In 2012, Guillermo Flórez, a Spanish documentary filmmaker, visited Lorena at her small apartment in Queens. And while she was getting ready to go out for the night, he filmed her. We are listening to the audio from that video.

[Lorena Borjas]: The accessory. The accessories…

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Lorena, then 52 years old, is sitting in front of a large mirror and a case full of makeup brushes and cosmetics.

[Lorena Borjas]: I haven’t washed my brushes.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She begins to powder her full face. There are already a few wrinkles. She lines her eyes — small and mischievous.

[Lorena Borjas]: Can you believe I ran out of lash glue?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She combs her hair, pulls it back, and puts on a braided wig in the shape of a crown.

[Lorena Borjas]: «They say men shouldn’t cry over a woman.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She puts on large golden earrings. She looks unmistakably Mexican. Since she was six years old, she knew she was a woman.

[Lorena Borjas]: And I wanted to look like that — like a Mexican vedette. I don’t know if you’ve heard of her, her name is Lyn May, a very famous Mexican entertainer. And I was a huge fan of hers. I used to say, «I want to look like that woman, so beautiful and lovely.» And I was always playing with my sister’s dolls. I was always doing things like sewing. And my brothers would say to me, «you’re going to like men, right?» And I’d say, «oh, no, come on, I’m going to like women.» But I would say to myself, «never.» And I laughed on the inside. And I’d think, «can’t they see?»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Lorena looks at herself in the mirror for several seconds. She smiles coyly.

She is Lorena.

She crossed the border in 1981, through the Rio Grande, when she was 20 years old.

[Lorena Borjas]: Honestly, when I saw that river, I didn’t want to cross. «Oh no,» I thought. I said to myself, «I’m going back to my Mexico. No. What am I going to do, to look for another country?» But I was already there. I said, «it is what it is.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She went all the way to New York. She wanted to be somewhere she could safely undergo her hormonal transition, because in Mexico that simply didn’t exist. But the New York she found was very different from the one she had imagined.

[Cristina Herrera]: Back then New York was a city full of graffiti, full of crime.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: This is Cristina again. She arrived in the city in 1985, being 16 years old.

[Cristina Herrera]: It was also filling up with people who had problems with substances — crack. It was starting to destroy a lot of neighborhoods here.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The crack and HIV epidemics were at their worst, and the LGBTQ community was particularly vulnerable. On top of that, at the time no one talked about the differences between a gay or bisexual person, much less a trans person. So carving out a place for yourself was hard.

[Cristina Herrera]: Back then we didn’t have safe spaces where we could gather. In those days you either hung out in the bars, or you hung out in, say, places like train stations, certain train stations, and Port Authority.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Port Authority, the bus terminal in midtown Manhattan, at 42nd Street and Eighth Avenue.

[Cristina Herrera]: So every day after work, we would go to 42nd. That’s where we met up with other trans people, other people who were LGB.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: A place to chat, to meet people, even to cruise — to have sex in public places.

[Cristina Herrera]: For me it was a really nice experience, because it wasn’t just worry and discomfort anymore, it was also like, maybe this is going to be my new family.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And it was there, around 1987, that Cristina met Lorena.

[Cristina Herrera]: You’d see her on the street and think: this is a schoolgirl, because she had her two little buns, one on each side, with her little clips, just like a little student girl. So that’s when they introduced us. She says to me, «hi mami, how are you?» and greets me. And back then too, like now, we’d give each other a little hug, like to reaffirm that we’re part of the community.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: By then Lorena had already been in the city for about six years. She had found work at a belt factory in the Garment District, a few blocks from Port Authority. She was also in the middle of her transition. On top of that, she already had her residency. She got it through the amnesty that President Reagan granted to undocumented immigrants in 1986. And she was studying accounting.

In other words, things were going relatively well for her.

But not long after, in ’89, she lost her job at the factory. And the further along she got in her transition, the harder it became to get hired anywhere else. This is how Cristina explains it.

[Cristina Herrera]: A trans person couldn’t just walk into a place, into a McDonald’s, and say, «I want to apply for a cashier position.» They’d laugh in your face. Or they’d take your résumé and throw it in the trash — sometimes right in front of you, because there were no laws protecting us, so to speak. There was so much ignorance.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: As the 1990s began, Lorena could no longer find opportunities. She faced discrimination and was running out of money. And that pushed her into sex work, a crime punishable by up to three months in jail in New York State.

She soon met a woman who would find her clients in exchange for a cut of the earnings. Without realizing it, Lorena had become the victim of a human trafficking network.

She began walking Roosevelt Avenue. Remember this street, because we’ll visit it many times in this series. Roosevelt is one of the most important avenues in Queens, where sex workers gathered — and still gather — at night.

[Liaam Winslet]: Back then, when she arrived here, it was hard to be trans, to be a sex worker.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: This is Liaam again.

[Liaam Winslet]: Substances were very easy to come by. Back then Lorena used substances, used alcohol, and she talked about it openly, right? She would say, «I’m a survivor because I was abused by the system.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: For example: if a client wanted to drink alcohol, Lorena had to join him; if the client wanted to use drugs, same thing.

[Liaam Winslet]: Nobody knows what you’re living. If you have a client, and the client pays you a thousand dollars, you’re not going to say no, because in that moment you need that thousand dollars. She used to say, «when I went with my clients, I’d go to a hotel and wouldn’t come out until three or four days later because the client was paying me for each day to be with him.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It was a vicious cycle. Little by little, substance use became both a means of survival and also a source of comfort.

[Cristina Herrera]: She was already a joyful person even without being under the influence of alcohol or drugs. But when she was under the influence, she was so much more joyful. She made us laugh more, she made things feel more normal, she helped us forget our problems more.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Because Cristina was also a sex worker. And going out on the street at night was a huge stress.

[Cristina Herrera]: When that little voice inside you sometimes starts to say that being trans isn’t the best, or that it comes with complications, she helped us neutralize or ease that kind of thinking.

[Liaam Winslet]: She used to say, «Liaam, when I was very young I did so many things because I felt so much pain. I carried so many memories, so many wounds from my life, a lot of abuse too,» right?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It was around that time that Lorena contracted HIV. Receiving news like that in those days, when treatments barely existed, was like being handed a death sentence. But on top of that, Lorena was also suffering domestic violence at the hands of her partner. And as a sex worker, she was a constant target of police abuse on Roosevelt Avenue.

[Cristina Herrera]: Working on Roosevelt back then, trans women were like easier prey for police to meet their quotas. Because Roosevelt at that time was full of drug dealers, they were brazenly selling on the corners. But it was trans women that the police went after because trans women were never going to fight back.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Throughout the 1990s, Lorena was arrested several times, always for reasons tied to her sex work. All of this criminal history was enough to make her too afraid to renew her residency. She was scared. And so Lorena began living undocumented. She fell into extreme precarity. Liaam sums it up this way:

[Liaam Winslet]: Being a trans woman, being Latina, being a woman of color, being an immigrant, living with HIV, not speaking English — it all becomes a constant barrier.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Here is Lorena again.

[Lorena Borjas]: I used to go to a support group here in Queens, and in the support group there were trans girls who were using drugs, who were using alcohol. And I would think, «but how am I going to give advice when I also drink, when I also, in one way or another, use drugs, in one way or another get drunk?» Well, I couldn’t see myself reaching out to a girl.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But she began doing exactly that: reaching out to her fellow women, going wherever they went to help them. Lorena knew by heart the streets that sex workers frequented and the clubs on Roosevelt Avenue where Latin trans women gathered.

She started visiting those places with a cart full of condoms to hand out. Something that today sounds like a small thing, but in the 1990s was very risky. The police could arrest you and charge you with prostitution if they found three or more condoms in your bag. That’s how harsh the laws against sex workers were.

[Lorena Borjas]: I learned my work from the streets. I learned it with the girls. I myself had many run-ins with the police, and from not being well informed. What can I do? Where should I go? Who’s going to help me? Well, nobody knew.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Lorena put no limits on her help. One example: many times the city’s shelters — the ones supposedly giving refuge to vulnerable populations — would turn away Lorena’s companions for being trans. So she would invite them to her home.

[Liaam Winslet]: When you arrived at Lorena’s house, you always wondered why she had that little folding bed at the entrance of her home. You’d think, «why?» Until she would say, «no, because sometimes the pájaras, when they come by, I know a lot of them don’t know where to stay. So I have that little bed because I know how hard it is when you don’t have a safe place to sleep.» So many of our companions — and I include myself — stayed in Lorena’s bed, right? It was like something very sacred. She could renovate her house, fix up her house, change things, but that bed always had to be there for whichever girl might need it.

[Lorena Borjas]: And people would say to me, «Lorena, you sound like someone who’s into activism.» And I’d say, «what is this activism?» They’d say, «activism is what you’re doing.» And I’d tell them, «what I’m doing is something I enjoy — helping out. And also, I don’t like injustice.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That’s how she spent several years — with street-level activism. She did what she could, but in those days HIV kept spreading. And the police never stopped harassing trans sex workers.

[Lorena Borjas]: Well, one day, on a Friday, eight girls were arrested. Another weekend, twelve were arrested. Another weekend, five. And on and on like that. One day I said, «No. Lorena Borjas needs to step up. Who’s going to do this work? Lorena Borjas. Lorena Borjas is the one who’s going to look out for these girls who have no voice and no vote.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’ll be right back.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’re back with Las Reinas de Queens. 

In the early 2000s, the obstacles facing Latin trans women in New York were many: transphobia, precarity, police violence. But among all of them, there was one far less obvious: invisibility.

Almost no one knew what the problems were, much less the needs of the community. And that’s where Lorena came in. She began weaving a network of contacts with organizations across New York: health clinics, activists, and immigration lawyers. And she brought to them the community’s stories so they would know what was happening.

[Lorena Borjas]: We brought testimonies to a table, to a discussion panel. How we could use that to tell the police… To tell the New York City police that what was happening was unjust. Why so many arrests? Why were so many transgender girls being deported?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She also began accompanying HIV patients at a time when the stigma weighed heavily. Cristina told us that Lorena connected them with social and medical services, from getting an HIV test to receiving treatment.

[Cristina Herrera]: At that time, a lot of people in the community didn’t want to be seen or associated with, say, a clinic that had to do with support services for people living with HIV. So sometimes Lorena would go to other places — out to Long Island, or up to Westchester — so that people could receive those services without worrying that someone would see them and automatically label them as a person already living with the HIV virus.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And that help from Lorena kept multiplying.

[Cristina Herrera]: Because there were hundreds of people she helped. Hundreds of appointments she went to. There were people who maybe needed just one appointment and were fine. But there were clients who needed to be accompanied five or ten times. And Lorena was there to help them.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But among all of that support, something was still missing.

[Lorena Borjas]: The girls would get out but they didn’t have a safe place, somewhere they could go to talk about their problems, somewhere to spend a nice afternoon.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Around 2008, Lorena secured a space in Queens to bring trans girls together and give talks about their rights. She then joined the board of Translatina Network, an organization co-founded by Cristina in 2009. Their goal was to have an institution made by the community, for the community.

[Cristina Herrera]: We didn’t start out receiving money from the government or from foundations. For MetroCards, for food for the group meetings, we had to go hold raffles at the clubs, at the discos in Queens.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The clubs where many women in the community gathered.

And in 2012, Lorena partnered with Chase Strangio, a highly respected trans lawyer in the United States, to found the Lorena Borjas Community Fund. Its goal was to raise money to pay the bail of incarcerated trans women.

Here is Lorena speaking about one case that affected her deeply: two trans girls facing 12 years in prison.

[Lorena Borjas]: What happened was that these girls were framed — they were accused of attempted murder with robbery, when these girls weren’t doing anything other than walking down the street. And I knew them personally. And when I got the news — that they were locked up and being charged, that there was no other way they could get out from under that accusation — I said, «no, I’m going to find whatever resources it takes.» I knocked on agencies’ doors. One agency said no, another said no, another said maybe, another said we’ll let you know. Until one agency finally said yes: «Lorena, I’m going to take this case and we’ll go wherever we have to go.» I was in court with them for 19 months straight. They were locked up inside, but I was, you could say, locked up outside — searching for resources, figuring out how we could get them free.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: If someone needed medicine in the early morning, Lorena answered. If someone had to be accompanied to a police station or a hearing, she was there. Sometimes she ate nothing more than a slice of pizza or a sandwich the whole day. Tiredness was always with her. 

By the 2010s, the landscape for the trans community in New York was, if not optimistic, at least promising. There was more visibility compared to previous decades. Laws protecting trans people were being passed, and the city seemed to be becoming a refuge for them.

By that point, Lorena had woven an enormous network of contacts. The local government had recognized her work. And in 2015 she was even able to found her own organization: the Intercultural Transgrediendo Collective. It was a small basement office on Roosevelt Avenue, just a few meters from where she had once worked as a sex worker.

[Lynly Egyes]: It’s hard to always remember all of her amazing work because there was just so much of it.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: She is Lynly Egyes, a lawyer specializing in sex work and human trafficking cases. She worked with Lorena for years defending incarcerated trans people. Lynly will never forget one of those cases: a defendant, a minor, who needed someone to represent him, and Lorena told him, «Lynly is going to help you.»

[Lynly Egyes]: «Lynly’s gonna help you. Lynly’s gonna be your attorney.» And I kind of looked at her and I’m like, «you can’t keep telling everyone I’m gonna be their attorney. But yes, I will.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Lynly agreed, of course. But the boy didn’t trust her. Why would he? No one had ever believed his story.

[Lynly Egyes]: I was speechless and I wasn’t sure what to say, and Lorena just kind of took her hand and put it on his shoulder and said, «Lynly will believe you. Lynly knows you’re not lying.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Lorena placed her hand on the boy’s shoulder and told him, «Lynly believes you, she knows you’re not lying.» And the boy agreed. That was Lorena’s power: she planted trust where there was none.

[Lynly Egyes]: But it always felt like this horrible feeling that I was able to help these other women through Lorena’s help, but I couldn’t help Lorena.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But despite all the achievements they had accomplished together, Lynly was frustrated that she couldn’t help Lorena with her own immigration case. Let’s remember: Lorena was undocumented.

[Liaam Winslet]: And I could see how stressed she got.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Liaam again.

[Liaam Winslet]: Because she would say, «Liaam, I’ve helped so many people. How can I not be able to become a citizen? How can I not have a status?»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And that meant she could be deported at any moment. The risk increased when Donald Trump took the presidency in 2017 and began toughening his immigration policies and his stance toward the trans community.

We’ll talk more about this in another episode. But it was in that increasingly tense environment that Lynly dared to carve a path through the legal labyrinth Lorena was caught in. They needed an urgent and bold solution.

[Lynly Egyes]: So we decided to do a governor’s pardon, which I was nervous about, Lorena was nervous about.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Instead of fighting her case in court, they were going to ask for a pardon from the then-governor of New York: Andrew Cuomo, a Democrat. At first Lorena wasn’t very convinced.

[Liaam Winslet]: She was worried. She was very, very scared, because she would say, «what if he doesn’t grant it? How is a governor going to look at a trans person, a trans woman, and give her that chance of a pardon?»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But if she obtained it, Lorena could renew her residency and apply for naturalization, and perhaps return to Mexico for a visit. That was something she had promised the Virgin of Guadalupe when she arrived in the United States in the ’80s.

So for months Lynly helped Lorena build her case. In a binder hundreds of pages thick, they compiled testimonies of all the community work Lorena had done over decades: letters from politicians, from activists, from the many people she had helped. That binder lives today at the Colectivo Transgrediendo, which Lorena founded and which Liaam now leads.

[Liaam Winslet]: Here it tells her whole story. It talks about her criminal cases, her name change, the letters that many of our companions wrote for her…

[Andrea]: «Dear Governor Cuomo, the reason for this letter is to request…»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We asked Andrea, who is part of the Colectivo Transgrediendo, to read us excerpts from those letters.

[Andrea]: «I am writing this letter asking you to pardon the convictions of Lorena Borjas. I met her two years ago at a disco where she was handing out condoms.»

«Governor Cuomo, Lorena Borjas is a key figure in our trans community. Thanks to her efforts, trans girls now count and are part of New York society.»

«Ever since I told Lorena Borjas about my problem with changing my name, she always made sure to follow up, and I am grateful she guided me through my entire transition.»

«I didn’t know where to turn if I got arrested. I had no knowledge of my rights as a trans girl.»

«Please, we need Lorena Borjas with us, because if she is not here, we will once again be vulnerable in this city.»

«And that is why I am respectfully asking that she be given another chance. Without her help we could not move forward.»

«Thank you for hearing my humble testimony, and I trust that you will give Mrs. Borjas that opportunity. She deserves it.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Lynly and Lorena sent the binder to the governor and waited. Months of uncertainty followed. Until December 2017…

[Liaam Winslet]: When they called her, she said, «Liaam, this number is calling me but I don’t know who it is and I’m not going to answer.» Until her lawyer called her and said, «no, the governor’s office is trying to reach you.» So they called back again. And we were both in the office together, and Lorena picks up the phone and answers, and they tell her, «what’s happening is we’re calling because the governor has been thinking about granting you the pardon.» And Lorena couldn’t believe it — she was like, «no, what you’re telling me is a joke, it’s not real, it’s a scam.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But it was real. Lorena wept.

[Lynly Egyes]: As amazing as it was, like, she should never have had to go through any of this. Like, her convictions should have been vacated.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: According to Lynly, Lorena should never have had to ask for a pardon. Her convictions should have been overturned long ago.

Either way, with the pardon Lorena was able to obtain citizenship and return to Mexico for the first time in forty years.

And Liaam accompanied her to the Basilica of the Virgin of Guadalupe.

[Liaam Winslet]: That was a whole day, a full day. Listen, Lorena took me to see everything. I had been to the basilica, but just the basilica itself. Lorena took me to the gardens around the back. «Look,» she said to me, «this church — when I used to come here, these floors weren’t here.» And she told me, «Liaam, this didn’t exist. Now it’s nice.» It was so emotional. I remember we even had a… what’s that soup called? A pozole. Right after leaving the basilica. Something else, I tell you. She was so pleased. She said to me, «we shouldn’t eat so late, Liaam, because I’ll get a stomach ache..» But she ate it all the same.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: That was Lorena. She had an huge appetite. At nearly sixty years old, it was as if she was only just beginning to prove who she really was.

We’ll be right back.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: We’re back.

Let’s jump to 2012. That year, at the end of May, Liaam met Lorena.

It was in Philadelphia, at a conference on healthcare access in the trans community. Liaam had traveled from Ecuador, where she still lived at the time.

[Liaam Winslet]: I said, «I have to take advantage of this — this is the moment.» So I was already coming with the idea of staying, but I didn’t know how, didn’t know how to go about that process.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In Philadelphia, Liaam gave a talk about young LGBTQ communities in Latin America and about violence against trans women in Ecuador.

When her talk ended, Lorena came up to her.

[Liaam Winslet]: She said, «oh, wow, I didn’t know about this. I didn’t know this was happening.» She was very surprised.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They got along right away. Lorena invited her to visit New York for a few days.

[Liaam Winslet]: I was kind of hesitant, because I thought, «I’ve never been there, I’m scared. I don’t know.» I had researched some things about New York. And just imagine: alone, not knowing where to go or what to do. But she suddenly said to me, «no, look, you know what? Come on, stay at my place. You can stay for a week. You can see if you like it. If you don’t, then you can decide to stay in Philadelphia instead.»

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Liaam stayed in New York. Lorena helped her in all the ways we’ve already heard: she connected her with medical services to continue her transition, and with legal services to get her papers. She taught Liaam everything she did. And very soon she made her her right hand and one of her closest confidantes.

Liaam remembers that one day Lorena lost her cell phone in a taxi. And to modernize herself she bought an iPhone.

[Liaam Winslet]: So I said to her, «look, we need to set this up, because if you don’t set this up and you lose your phone, there’s an option to wipe all the information or locate the phone.» So she said, «oh, set that up for me because that’s exactly what I need on my phone.» And so I did — I sent her the passcode. I had her passcode, and we really trusted each other. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: I’m telling you this because it was with that «find my phone» feature that, in March 2020, in the terror of the pandemic, hours after losing Lorena in the chaos gripping New York’s hospitals…

[Liaam Winslet]: Searching and searching, I found her phone at this hospital in Brooklyn. That’s where they had transferred her.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Lorena was at Coney Island Hospital, in southern Brooklyn, nearly an hour’s drive from Queens. Her friends were able to speak with the doctor in charge of her care. He told them she was intubated, on a ventilator. And that if she stopped breathing, they would not be able to resuscitate her.

Shortly after they found her, Lorena died. And the news reverberated everywhere.

[Archival audio, news report]: Originally from Veracruz, Mexico. By profession, a public accountant — and undocumented.

[Archival audio, news report]: Lorena Borjas, 59 years old, a trans activist from Jackson Heights, Queens. She was a heroine to the entire community.

[Archival audio, news report]: The coronavirus took her life, as it has taken thousands of Latinos who have fought their battles in this country.

[Archival audio, news report]: She was a critical part of our community and it’s such… So heartbreaking to lose her.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: It was March 30th, one day before the International Day of Trans Visibility.

[Liaam Winslet]: She died on a date where she didn’t want to be forgotten, right? Like, she was saying, «no, pájaras, you’ll never forget me — you’re not going to forget about this old pájara.» So, every single year, the whole community knows that Lorena died one day before Trans Visibility Day.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And today, six years after Lorena’s death, so many people still feel her absence.

[Cristina Herrera]: She left a void, an absence. But she left behind a better community. She left a community much better equipped, far more prepared to deal with whatever problems came their way, you know? So we focus on that, because we weren’t going to stay there paralyzed and, you know, sad all the time. We decided to keep fighting because we have no other choice. Our community has always fought. We’ve always pushed forward.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And that fight, that push, that’s what this series is about. Over the next nine episodes, we’ll meet the queens who have continued, one way or another, in the streets, in the bars, and in the beauty pageants — a desire that Lorena always held.

[Lorena Borjas]: Well, I’m going to get wherever I need to get to like a beast — fight with claws and nails, claws and nails. I don’t care, you know? Without disrespecting anyone, without saying anything. I always say that. They’ll say: «Lorena Borjas left something we’re going to continue: the battle, the fight.» Not because I’m no longer in the world, but I would like this to continue — I’d like them not to stop. 

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The queens of Queens will stop at nothing. 

Las Reinas de Queens is a podcast from Central, the series channel of Radio Ambulante Studios, and is part of the My Cultura podcast network on iHeartRadio.

This series was produced by Diego Senior and Pablo Argüelles, with additional production and reporting by Nikol Pizarro, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanin.

Thanks to Guillermo F. Flórez for the archival material on Lorena Borjas.

The editors were Daniel Alarcón, Silvia Viñas, and me.

Fact-checking by Bruno Scelza and Nikol Pizarro.

María Linares did the sound design and mixing, as well as the original music.

The series’ graphic design and art direction are by Diego Corzo.

Product development for Las Reinas de Queens was led by Natalia Ramírez. Digital production was carried out by Ana María Betancourt and Óscar Luna.

Business development and strategic partnerships were led by Camilo Jiménez Santofimio. Julián Santos and Eric Spiegelman provided legal support.

Las Reinas de Queens is an original idea by Diego Senior, Joana Toro, and Andrés Sanin.

The executive producers are Diego Senior; and from Radio Ambulante Studios, our CEO, Carolina Guerrero.

At iHeart, the executive producers are Arlene Santana and Leo Gomez.

Part of the funding for this project was provided by the Greater Good Science Center at the University of California, Berkeley, as part of their «Spreading Love Through Media» initiative, with support from the John Templeton Foundation.

You can follow us on social media at centralseriesRA and subscribe to our newsletter at centralpodcast.audio.

I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz. Thank you for listening.

***

Este podcast es propiedad de Radio Ambulante Studios. Cualquier copia, distribución o adaptación está expresamente prohibida sin previa autorización.

This podcast is the property of Radio Ambulante Studios. Any copy, distribution, or adaptation is expressly prohibited without prior authorization.

[Trailer] Las Reinas de Queens

Las Reinas de Queens

The following English translation was generated with the assistance of artificial intelligence and has been reviewed and edited by our team for accuracy and clarity.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: In New York City, in Queens, there’s a big street, Roosevelt Avenue. And there, when night falls, the queens come out. Women who have learned to survive three times: as trans women, as Latina immigrants, and as sex workers. For years, one woman accompanied and protected them.

[Lorena Borjas]: I’m going to get where I have to go like a dog, fight tooth and nail.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Lorena Borjas. The queen of the queens of Queens. But when she died…

[Cecilia Gentili]: No one will be able to fill Lorena Borjas’s shoes.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: The other queens were left without their greatest defender.

[Woman at vigil]: We all think they’re going to attack us for being trans. I’m afraid to walk around in a city that’s supposed to be safe.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: How do you make a space for yourself in a city that was supposed to be a refuge for you? In a country whose politics are becoming increasingly hostile to you?

[Audio de archivo, Donald Trump]: You can never become a woman, you’re not gonna be a woman.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Because today their kingdoms are in danger.

[Laura Martínez]: That’s why we don’t want Trump to stay, because he hates the community. He’s going to persecute us again.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: How do they fight? In the streets, as sex workers, they close ranks, confronting the police.

[Cristina Herrera]: Trans women were easier targets for the police to meet their quota.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: Confronting the neighbors.

[Audio of “prostitute march”]: What are we? Prostitutes! What do we want? Justice!

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And defending themselves against their own clients…

[Jacqui]: They shot her too, my friend…

[Man]: I’m going to the hospital.

[Jacqui]: They shot her too!

Of course we fall in love, but they don’t take us seriously either. Of course we want to start a family, but where is the one who wants to start one with us?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: But queens shine too. It’s not a metaphor. It’s not an exaggeration. Their palaces are many bars on Roosevelt Avenue.

[Laura Martínez]: And that’s when I started asking: where was there a drag show?

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: They’re queens because they’ve been crowned.

[Lorena St. Cartier]: I’m the transgender woman with the most crowns in New York City.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: And because they walk the stage like divas.

[Keyly Rosemberg]: When you’re on stage, live the song. Don’t look down at that person: excite them.

[Rula Ávila Muñoz]: I’m Rula Ávila Muñoz, and I invite you to a fierce and dazzling world, with music blasting, where thrice-marginalized women wage a fourth battle: not only to survive after the death of their protective mother, but to thrive in a world of threats, armed with heels, sequins, and if necessary, a good shot of tequila.

This is “Las Reinas de Queens”, a new series from Central, the series channel of Radio Ambulante Studios.

Listen to “Las Reinas de Queens” on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Follow us on social media at Central Series and subscribe to our newsletter at centralpodcast.audio.

New episodes every Thursday, starting April 9.

This podcast is the property of Radio Ambulante Studios. Any copy, distribution, or adaptation is expressly prohibited without prior authorization.

Este podcast es propiedad de Radio Ambulante Studios. Cualquier copia, distribución o adaptación está expresamente prohibida sin previa autorización.

Episode 10 | The Puzzle

El rompecabezas

[David Trujillo]: Previously on La Ruta del Sol…

[Carolina Pizano]: And there I started screaming: How can people believe in God? I mean, I couldn’t believe that my dad had died three days ago and my brother was dying now. 

[Néstor Humberto Martínez]: Hehehe yes, yes yes.

[Jorge Enrique Pizano]: Idiots

[Néstor Humberto]: Yes, yes, yes, son of a bitch.

[Néstor Humberto]: This is a bribe, man. 

[María Jimena Duzán]: And so I said: no, this is definitely the smoking gun, this is the smoking gun showing that those contracts are irregular, they did exist, despite the fact that all the authorities at Grupo Aval told Jorge Enrique himself that that wasn’t true, that it wasn’t real, that that was an invention of his. 

[Jorge Enrique]: I became a nuisance for many people, among them those that today are…they were convicted over irregular contracts in Ruta del Sol. 

[Juanita Pizano]: He told us that he was very sorry, that he knew he could have done more for my dad and he cried and all. 

But right after saying that, he told us: but I need you to release a statement because people are going crazy. So I need you to release a statement to say that you support the Attorney General’s Office investigation.

[Carolina]: And in the middle of all that he was saying things like if there’s an investigation, it’s going to come out  that Jorge Enrique was guilty of Alejandro’s death. So, of course, if they tell you that, you, in deep pain,  say no, well no, better not, because we don’t want them to say now that Jorge Enrique was guilty.

[Carlos Valdés]: I told my deputy director: find out from the laboratory what that stain was. And then she gives me an answer about an hour later: the result is that that stain is saliva. I said: oh, I made a mistake. 

[Jorge Robledo]: What changed in this story? What’s new? We all know: Jorge Enrique Pizano is what’s new in this story.

[Angélica Lozano]: Mr. Attorney General: resign. If you do the crime, you do the time. And you must pay.

[Néstor Humberto]: Mr. Luis Fernando Andrade, director of the ANI during the contracting of Ruta del Sol, has insisted on the theory that I am persecuting him.

[Luis Fernando Andrade]: It was clear that the man who controlled the Attorney General’s Office in the country and who looked after the interests of powerful men, was accusing me of being a great conspirator against justice.

[Juanita]: But my dad’s complaint was definitely, at least the basis for the Americans to find much more. I mean, what my dad found was like the tip of the iceberg. 

[Protests]: Take to the streets to bring down the corrupt Attorney General.

[Nestor Humberto Martínez]: I’ve already told you that Jorge Enrique and I built a very beautiful friendship. 

Unfortunately, today that friendship is even disavowed, despite the fact that I helped him so many times in his professional life.

The case of the profoundly painful death of Alejandro Pizano Ponce de León is hereby closed.

[David]: In late March 2024, a little more than five years after the deaths of Jorge Enrique and Alejandro, I met Juanita Pizano in Bogotá. It was the first time we met in person, though we had already done a virtual interview a few months earlier.

She had been living in the United States for over a year, working at a law firm. The plan was to spend a few months with her family and then return to the U.S. to sort some things out.

We met at her mother’s house to talk about the family tragedy that remains so confusing, about what had happened in the past few years, and about her return.

I wanted to ask you precisely that, how does it feel to be back?

[Juanita]: I feel very weird. Very anxious. Very strange. Coming back here did cause me a lot of anxiety, and there’s this fear of running into people I knew from that time, because it’s like suddenly going back in time. Sometimes I run into someone I haven’t seen in years and I feel like I’ve gone back in time and everything is going wrong again. But I think that, over time, that starts to heal. Days go by and I start feeling more in 2024 instead of in those dramatic days.

[David]: We also discussed the country house, the place where the deaths occurred. She told me it was still very important to the family and that they didn’t want to stop going there.

[Juanita]: We’ve gone there many times since everything happened, and it’s also been a therapeutic process—not to replace, but to add new memories to that place, to change the energy a little.

[David]: But the grief continues…

[Juanita]: Grief plays these tricks on you. For some reason, I feel like my dad is going to be there waiting for me, but he isn’t. It’s like I walk into that house and look for him in every room, and he’s not there.

[David]: Her sister Carolina had been living in that house for a year. I had also spoken with her a little over a month earlier, and Juanita had already gone to visit her.

[Juanita]: When I got there, I realized that everything had changed a lot while I was gone. Not destroyed, but very different. The whole house had been rearranged.

[David]: That wasn’t the only thing that had changed over those years. Several things had also happened with the case. Let’s remember that in 2019, the Attorney General at the time, Néstor Humberto Martínez, publicly announced that the investigation into Alejandro’s death was being closed. The argument was that Jorge Enrique’s death had been of natural causes, and his son’s death a tragic accident caused by his father—who was no longer alive to be investigated.

But the story didn’t end there. When a case has reached a certain stage, a judge must accept the Attorney General’s Office’s arguments in a hearing in order to close it. And whatever that decision is, it can be appealed. So from the moment Néstor Humberto Martínez made that announcement, an endless legal tug-of-war began between the Attorney General’s Office insisting on closing the case, and the justice system demanding further investigation. Although the family initially authorized the case to be filed, some time later, working with their lawyer and in order to convince the judge that there were sufficient reasons to continue investigating, they spent more than a year meticulously reviewing what the Attorney General’s Office had done at the time of the deaths. In that process, they found gaps that, to them, were obvious.

The question was whether that review would be enough to convince the judge not to close the case.

From Central Series and Radio Ambulante Studios, this is La Ruta del Sol.

I’m David Trujillo.

Today, our final episode. Episode 10: The Puzzle.

[David]: Juanita was never convinced that her father’s death had been of natural causes. From the moment her mother called to tell her what had happened, she thought it was strange.

[Juanita]: My dad’s death didn’t sound normal to me. Literally from the second he died.

[David]: And that feeling didn’t fade with time. In fact, it was reinforced by comments she saw online. In those days, as the media and social media  talked about Jorge Enrique’s work and his death, she came across something that didn’t surprise her.

[Juanita]: Someone posted a comment like… haha, they killed him. And I was like, yeah, that really resonates. Like, I’m not the only one who finds this strange.

[David]: At the time, she didn’t get a chance to talk about it with anyone else—not even with Alejandro, who knew more about what was going on with their father. But there wasn’t time for anything, because just three days later, her brother had also died. Nothing was clear anymore.

And as we know, everything started to become confusing very quickly. The same night Alejandro died, after a first, very quick inspection of the house by an official from the Attorney General’s Office’s Investigation Unit, the family did not stay there. They returned to Bogotá. But suddenly, they received a call from the person who worked at the house, telling them that several black vehicles were asking to be let in.

[Juanita]: It was a bunch of SUVs from the Attorney General’s Office trying to get in at 11 p.m. on November 11. And we told them no. I mean, what were they going to do? They said they were going to do a search, some kind of photographic documentation. And they insisted—apparently for hours.

[David]: They didn’t understand why the Attorney General’s Office was so insistent on entering the house—especially without them being there. Or why there were so many vehicles.

[Juanita]: And we told the person working there, please don’t open the door, don’t open the door for those people because we don’t know who they are. I think we called Néstor Humberto himself—I don’t remember exactly—but we called someone high up to say, hey, get these people off the property. We don’t know who they are. This is not the moment to do any kind of photographic documentation. Just leave us alone for a second. Alejandro just died.

[David]: That’s why they agreed that the Attorney General’s Office’s Investigation Unit would inspect the house almost a week later, when they would be present. During that inspection, in a recess when the family was outside the house, investigators found the cyanide container in one of the bathrooms. They also found a towel with brown stains that turned out not to be blood, and they seized hard drives, security cameras, and cell phones.

[David]: A few days later, the results of the forensic analyses began to come in. And amid all the doubts surrounding the investigation, there was something that Juanita found even stranger: the bottle. One reason was that on the day her father died, she had gone to the house to pick up some documents. She had even looked for them in his desk.

[Juanita]: That’s where I always say, and repeat, that there was no bottle on my dad’s desk. Because my boyfriend at the time and I lifted it—it’s one of those school-desk-style tables where you can lift a cover and have a little compartment inside. But the bottle wasn’t there. And then, a few days later, my ex told me, “Hey, I don’t want to scare you, but I didn’t see the bottle when I was there with you, picking up the papers.” And I was like, yeah, you’re right. I had thought the same thing, but I didn’t want to create unnecessary drama at that moment. But yes.

[David]: Juanita also found it very strange how quickly the Attorney General’s Office put together the hypothesis we already know: a failed suicide attempt, Jorge Enrique’s death of natural causes, Alejandro’s accident. None of it convinced her, and she couldn’t understand why other lines of investigation were never considered.

[Juanita]: They ruled out the criminal element with arguments that were so, so absurd—absurd in how basic they were. For example, that my dad’s death was of natural causes because he had cancer, when everyone knew, and we had all said over and over again, even to exhaustion, that my dad did not have cancer when he died. Or the idea that no one decides to kill themselves and then immediately go take a shower. Or that he had, I don’t know, a couple of appointments scheduled for the rest of that week and that weekend. Also, the fact that they didn’t really look carefully at the symptoms that Alejandro and my dad each had at the time of death, and didn’t properly compare them—that was also terrible.

[David]: Juanita felt that everything that was happening was much bigger and more confusing than she had thought. A truth that was almost impossible to grasp. Because of all this, and because of the overwhelm caused by the avalanche of media coverage, she chose not to talk about it with her family at that moment. Maybe it was better to leave things as they were, not to dig any deeper.

[David]: Her sister Carolina was feeling something similar. I also met with her, also at their mother’s house, almost a month before speaking with Juanita. At that time, she told me that although she had doubts about the deaths very early, she didn’t dare bring them up either.

[Carolina]: I think there are two things here. One, fear. If you know this happened because of the complaints, because of speaking out, you say something like, hey, no. Let’s leave it at that. And also because there was so much pain. 

[David]: In 2022, when there was a new hearing to decide whether the investigation into Alejandro’s death would be closed, the sisters and their mother were summoned as victims. When it began, the judge asked them about their lawyer. But they didn’t have one. They didn’t have the money to pay for one.

Carolina remembers that the prosecutor who was there began to pressure the judge to continue without a lawyer.

[Carolina]: He more or less said something like: can we go on?  We need to close this, this has to be done quickly. And the judge was like, no, there has to be a victims’ representative. So that’s when we left, started reaching out, and ended up with Miguel Ángel del Río.

[David]: Miguel Ángel del Río is a very well-known criminal lawyer in the country. He has handled very high-profile cases. Like for most people in Colombia, the Pizano family’s story had had a strong impact on him.

[Miguel Ángel del Río]: Even from the very beginning, from the very beginning, I suspected that something strange was going on, but as a distant observer.

[David]: And as a distant observer, as he says, his suspicions continued as the few details of the case became known. It seemed very strange to him that even though not all doubts had been resolved, it was closed in just two months.

[Miguel Ángel]: I have always wondered what was the rush the  Attorney General’s Office had to close a process. Here, investigations stay open for 20 years and nothing happens. Why not keep investigating? Why… why do they want to rush it?

[David]: When he found out that the Attorney General’s Office once again wanted to close the investigation and that the family needed a lawyer, a journalist friend put him in contact with Carolina.

[Miguel Ángel]: And I told her that I would like to take on that representation of victims, because in reality we are not—we are not defendants, but representatives of victims.

[Carolina]: So, obviously, I told him that we didn’t have the means. I mean, we were in debt here, because when my dad died he also left a lot of debt, a lot. So he said no, that he would do it pro bono. So it was like, no—wonderful, perfect. Then I met with Miguel Ángel and he tells me, I tell him—we kind of established contact like that and started working with him.

[David]: That was at the beginning of 2023. And working with him meant digging deeper, looking for arguments so that the judge would not archive the investigation. It was going to be very painful, but Carolina, Juanita, and their mother agreed. They felt it was time to reopen what had been closed.

[Carolina]: Once we were able to handle the grief, to be a bit calmer, to some extent, you start to realize that for our grieving process it’s also necessary to have the intention of clarifying things. It’s very easy to say: I’m just going to think about the nice things that happened and that’s it. About the good things. Yes, about the family we had, about the love, about the relationship. Yes. But that’s not seeing the elephant in the room. It’s looking for the reason for the death. It’s opening Pandora’s box.

[David]: Despite that, there were people around them who advised them not to insist. They told them that what had happened could not be changed, that they should leave hatred and anger aside.

[Juanita]: I don’t like that comment from that third party about why we’re so angry, that historical comment of telling a woman to calm down. No, I’m not angry, not hysterical. I just want to know what happened. The three of us—my mom, my sister, and I—we would like the Attorney General’s Office to carry out all of its functions properly, in the best legal way, because it didn’t do that at the time.

[Carolina]: Yes, that’s exactly it. They haven’t done their job. They didn’t do the work of investigating. Journalists have done more than they have. We’re not doing this because we’re full of hatred or resentment, or because we think our pain is going to go away by finding the truth. It has nothing to do with any of that. It has to do with a moral and just intention, and it’s purely personal.

[David]: Wanting to know what happened

A pause, and we’ll be back.

We’re back on La Ruta del Sol.

From the moment the Pizano sisters and their mother got in touch with the lawyer Miguel Ángel del Río, he set out to understand Jorge Enrique’s personality and his intentions in the months before his death. The family gave him boxes and boxes filled with all kinds of documents, which allowed Miguel Ángel to get closer to how methodical and organized Jorge Enrique was.

[Miguel Ángel]: And I ended up feeling very connected, because I work that way. So I felt, okay, this is a distressed man, this is a man being judicially persecuted, who has had all the doors closed on him, who is gradually being left without support from anyone, only with his family. But I also saw a man who wanted to prove his truth. To me, Jorge Enrique Pizano is a hero, someone who, by his own conviction, believed that people needed to know the truth about a dark chapter of recent judicial history. And I said: we have to find the truth here.

[David]: He reviewed the investigation carried out by the Attorney General’s Office—which lasted only two months, from November 2018 to January 2019—and also the arguments used to close it.

[Miguel Ángel]: There was interest in the investigation, yes, but with a purpose aimed at closing the investigation at any cost, at considering that Jorge Enrique Pizano had died of a heart attack. The normal course of a judicial process is supposed to be to investigate everything: the good, the bad, the small, the big—especially an investigation of this level. And from that moment on, I realized that nothing had been done.

[David]: For him, it was absurd that in one of the most important investigations the Attorney General’s Office was handling at the time, with almost the entire country watching, they had ignored such basic things.

On the one hand, it was not clear to Miguel Ángel why the Attorney General’s Office  had clung to a single hypothesis for Jorge Enrique’s death: that of a failed suicide attempt due to financial problems. As he explains, the Attorney General’s Office ’s arguments do not include key information, such as the fact that Jorge Enrique had appointments scheduled for just days after his death. There was one with the journalist María Jimena Duzán and another with a Bloomberg journalist, and Jorge Enrique himself had confirmed he’d be there. They also did not take into account where he had worked, the relationships he had with other employees, and even less the irregularities he had uncovered. The Attorney General’s Office  did not even take into account his fear for his safety, a fear that he had directly expressed to them himself.

[Miguel Ángel]: And the Attorney General’s Office didn’t do that. We did. In fact, we found documents written by him a month and a half before his death where he tells the Office of the Attorney General of the Nation: Gentlemen of the Attorney General’s Office, please protect my life, because I fear for my personal safety and that of my family. Why didn’t the Attorney General’s Office  investigate and interview, for example, Iván Serrano? Not so that he would give journalistic information, but to establish what the criteria were.

[David]: The criteria—that is, Jorge Enrique’s reasons for requesting protection. We already know that when he gave the interview to Iván and handed over the recordings, he told him that he was afraid. It is true that Jorge Enrique did not accept the protection program offered by the Attorney General’s Office  because, according to what he wrote in a document, it did not fit his conditions. But it is also true that he asked them to urgently transfer his case to the National Protection Unit, which is independent from the Attorney General’s Office and is exclusively in charge of managing protection for people in situations of risk.

In addition, Miguel Ángel learned something key in all of this:

[Miguel Ángel]: In fact, he had an interview with a protection official from the Attorney General’s Office, and that was never disclosed. What did he talk about with that official? What did the official tell him? We still don’t know to this day.

[David]: It’s also not very clear why, on the bottle—as we already mentioned—they only found Jorge Enrique’s DNA and not Alejandro’s.

[Miguel Ángel]: That’s what makes you say: but let’s see—if Alejandro was the one who drank from the bottle and died from ingesting cyanide, how is it that the only DNA found on the mouth of the bottle is from Jorge Enrique, his father, who supposedly died of a heart attack?

[David]: Another piece of evidence presented by the Attorney General’s Office  was that video of Jorge Enrique buying several similar bottles of water at a supermarket. But for Miguel Ángel and the family, the only thing the video proves is exactly that: him buying the water he liked. Nothing more. It’s not even known whether it was the same bottle that contained the poison.

[Miguel Ángel]: Because we were able to find out that those bottles have bar codes, and those bar codes correspond to the bottle throughout the entire country. What did that mean? That if I bought a bottle of water in Santander that year or bought it in Bogotá, it had the same serial number. Obviously, the bottle that appears has the same serial as all the bottles in the country in 2018, because that’s what the brand itself told us.

[David]: There is also no concrete evidence that he bought the cyanide. There are no videos, no receipts, no purchase records. Nothing. But according to the Institute of Forensic Medicine, there was DNA from Jorge Enrique on the cyanide container and on the bags that wrapped it. That is another of the bases of the Attorney General’s Office’s hypothesis that he put the poison in the bottle.

But that doesn’t convince Miguel Ángel either.

[Miguel Ángel]: Because, among other things, what brings down the suicide theory, for example, is that he was shaving when they find him.  No one with full awareness drinks cyanide and then starts shaving.

[David]: But, according to Miguel Ángel, that doesn’t mean that Jorge Enrique had not ingested the poison.

[Miguel Ángel]: The Attorney General’s Office didn’t even investigate that ingesting cyanide in his body can cause respiratory arrest. So even the Forensic  Medicine report on his death doesn’t make sense, doesn’t have support. I do believe he had cyanide in his body, but through accidental ingestion—accidental on his part, deliberate by third parties.

[David]: Miguel Ángel believes that that third party could have been someone who worked at the country house where Jorge Enrique was living.

[Miguel Ángel]: The Attorney General’s Office says that he had absolute trust in all those people who worked with him and that they could never have killed him. And we were able to prove that two of the people who worked there had just met with Enrique Pizarro a month earlier, and that Jorge Enrique himself had reservations about one of them.

[David]: Carolina remembers that her father complained about the couple who took care of the place—a man and a woman. He said they had stolen some things from the house and that he no longer felt comfortable with them. She also remembers that her father was planning to fire them very soon, and that the day he died he was working on their severance payments. Shortly after the deaths, they stopped working at the house.

[Miguel Ángel]: And notice that all those people disappeared. The Attorney General’s Office lost track of them. Today they are unfindable. It would be good to really bring them back in, to have them say the things that could have happened.

[David]: Miguel Ángel also maintains that the testimony given about Jorge Enrique by the housemaid who lived in that house is also unclear.

[Miguel Ángel]: At first, she stated that no, that she had never seen any suicidal intent or any desire to harm himself.

[David]: But later she said that she had seen him take a bottle of water and a spoon from the kitchen. When the then Attorney General announced the closing of the investigation, he added that, according to that testimony, Jorge Enrique had locked himself in with the bottle and the spoon in the same bathroom where the cyanide container was found.

On the other hand, according to the statement of the other housemaid who came on weekends, on November 8, after Jorge Enrique was taken to the hospital and while she was organizing his room, she did find the bottle on the desk. She noticed that two or three sips of the liquid had been drunk  and that it had the cap on, but it was not closed. She left it there. She also said that at that moment she found on the floor a note written by Jorge Enrique.

[Miguel Ángel]: A letter as if it were some kind of farewell will. And later it was discovered that the document that had been found was a document called Things to Do, like when you write in a planner what you’re going to do that day. It was found on Jorge Enrique’s desk and it said things like: we have to pay the employees, we have to withdraw some severance payments from such-and-such bank, we have to go talk to so-and-so. The natural plans of a human being. If a person is going to end their life, they don’t leave a technical letter, they leave a human letter. With a powerful emotional charge, too. And that didn’t happen.

[David]: The housemaid who found Jorge Enrique’s note and the bottle added that right afterward she spoke with the live-in housemaid, and that the latter told her the following—this is a direct quote: “She told me: I have a feeling that Don Jorge drank something, because he went down early to the kitchen, had a coffee, and took a bottle of water from the pantry and left drinking it, because he never drinks water that early.” End quote.

It is also possible, according to Miguel Ángel, that someone from outside entered the house and placed the bottle there. It was not unthinkable, as the Attorney General’s Office suggested.

[Miguel Ángel]: And we were also able to establish how easy it was for any citizen to enter. That is, there was no kind of rigor, no alarms, no—there was nothing at all.

[David]: What there were, were security cameras. According to Miguel Ángel, Jorge Enrique had installed them a month before his death.

[Miguel Ángel]: And then you ask yourself, fine—and what’s on the security cameras? We will never know, because the Attorney General’s Office took them and said, no, we weren’t able to legalize this information.

[David]: Remember that they kept the evidence longer than they should have and did not legalize it before a judge.

[Miguel Ángel]: That’s one of the most unbelievable things. They knew that if they arrived late, that evidence would be rejected, and they would be left with the theory of a heart attack and that Alejandro drank that cyanide by accident, which is the only reality. The only reality of the case is that Alejandro did drink from that bottle by accident.

[David]: A pause, and we’ll be back.

We’re back on La Ruta del Sol.

[Miguel Ángel]: Thank you, Your Honor. This representation of victims, which precisely represents the interests of María Carolina Pizano, of Juanita Pizano—

[David]: At the end of 2023, the lawyer Miguel Ángel del Río presented the family’s arguments before a judge so that the case of Alejandro Pizano would not be closed.

[Miguel Ángel]: They have been waiting five years for justice.

[David]: Miguel Ángel and his team had been gathering information since the beginning of that year and had clearly identified the gaps in the Attorney General’s Office’s investigation of this case.

[Miguel Ángel]: In such a way that, from this moment on, this representation of victims must oppose the request for preclusion. Because the real question here, Your Honor, is the existence or not of possible investigative lines that the Attorney General’s Office has not addressed.

[David]: Miguel Ángel’s intervention lasted around eight hours, with a break in the middle to rest and eat something. During that entire time, the lawyer presented the doubts we have already mentioned and added documents, statements from the Pizano family and other witnesses, analyses of expert reports, and everything necessary to make it clear that the Attorney General’s Office’s argument—that Jorge Enrique prepared everything for a suicide and that just minutes before had died a natural death—made no sense. For him, it was impossible to reach a conclusion about what happened with an investigation that had only lasted two months.

[David]: Toward the end of his intervention, Miguel Ángel made a list of what the Attorney General’s Office did not do.

[Miguel Ángel]: The Attorney General’s Office never identified security problems involving Jorge Enrique Pizano. It never interviewed the people who could have been reported by Jorge Enrique Pizano. It never interviewed the protection official who spoke with Jorge Enrique Pizano, and to this day, Your Honor, we do not know exactly what was said or discussed. The files within the Attorney General’s Office, the Superintendence of Industry and Commerce, and the Arbitration Tribunal—where Jorge Enrique Pizano gave statements in 2018 and in 2017—were never inspected. It was never established with certainty, Your Honor, what the diagnosis of death was, or it was overlooked that the heart attack could have consequences—not in the evaluative and speculative aspects made at the time by pathologist Morales, but rather, Your Honor, in the possibility that it was related, precisely, to the ingestion of cyanide. The backgrounds of the people who worked with Jorge Enrique Pizano were not established. It was established that he did not trust them. It is not known where they are today. Complaints were not filed. The Attorney General’s Office did not even request testimony from Prosecutor 80, Amparo Zerón, to establish what the investigative line was and what contribution Jorge Enrique Pizano had made to that investigation.

[David]: The Pizano sisters were listening to Miguel Ángel’s intervention. They knew what he was going to say, but it was still surprising. Up to that point, they had not had someone represent them in the way they truly wanted.

[Carolina]: And there I felt very happy with how well he presented it. It’s all there—he told everything, all the information is there. It’s like tying loose ends together. Or it’s like when you start cleaning a glass, right? At first it looks kind of cloudy, but each time it looks clearer.

[Juanita]: I had never seen anyone explain so clearly and concisely, and legally, everything that happened to us. And he did it in a truly masterful way. I mean, he was able to explain point by point all the causes of our insomnia. He’s been one of the few people who has taken the time and the energy to investigate who Jorge Enrique Pizano was.

[David]: At the end of his intervention, Miguel Ángel asked the judge to allow the victims to know what happened.

[Miguel Ángel]: In that sense, Your Honor, thanking you for your patience with each of the parties, this representative of victims concludes his intervention by making the request, I repeat, not to grant the preclusion requested by the Attorney General’s Office and that this investigation continue its necessary inquiry. Thank you very much.

[David]: But the judge’s decision was not immediate. They had to wait more than three months and another long hearing—almost five hours—to learn it. The day I met with Juanita, I also asked her about that.

How did the March 8 hearing go?

[Juanita]: Well, I wasn’t mentally prepared and I wasn’t expecting anything. I thought that, honestly, I was sure the judge was going to say that the investigation was over.

[David]: But that day, March 8, 2024, the judge announced something very important:

[Judge]: There is doubt regarding death by natural causes of Jorge Enrique Pizano Callejas, in addition to a series of inconsistencies in the collection and handling of evidence of vital importance in the present case.

[David]: He ordered the Attorney General’s Office, once again, that the case could not be closed. And he added that other possible causes of the Pizanos’ deaths should not be ruled out.

[Judge]: To conclude, it was sufficiently clear that the hypothesis chosen by the Attorney General’s Office is only one possibility within the wide range of probabilities that are equally valid for the investigation of the person responsible for the death of Alejandro, and that this entity did not dispel.

[Juanita]: The three of us were very surprised—in a good way. It was very gratifying to hear the judge literally give the Attorney General’s Office a lesson on how a case, an investigation, is precluded, and let’s say all the shortcomings the Attorney General’s Office had had, not only in its actions but also in its argumentation afterward in the hearings, which was quite serious.

[David]: The news came out that same day.

[Catalina Vargas]: A judge in Funza ruled that the investigation into the death of Jorge Enrique Pizano, former controller of Ruta del Sol and a key witness in the Odebrecht case, and his son Alejandro cannot be precluded. And he ordered the Attorney General’s Office to continue the investigation to establish whether the death of both was a homicide.

[David]: For Miguel Ángel, it was a small victory amid so much horror.

[Miguel Ángel]: They have suffered two tragedies … actually three, which are the death of the father, the death of the brother, and the justice system’s failure to respond. The Office of the Attorney General of the Nation has revictimized them and slapped them in the sense that the only thing they believed in was institutional legitimacy. They believed in the officials who participated in the investigations, they voluntarily handed over material evidence, and all of that was lost. So now we are going to set the investigation on the right path, as it should be done—that the Attorney General’s Office investigate the good, the bad, the ugly, everything.

[David]: Among what Miguel Ángel mentions that the Attorney General’s Office must investigate, there is a specific event that occurred in 2018, shortly after Alejandro’s death.
The daughters and their mother were at an uncle’s house in Bogotá when the then Attorney General, Néstor Humberto Martínez, paid them a visit that was arranged by his son. We had already talked about that visit in other episodes. It was when Jorge Enrique’s daughters tell that Martínez arrived very shaken. Not only by the loss, but also because, after the revelations of the audio published by Noticias Uno, he was being criticized in the media and on social media. Carolina was there.

[Carolina]: So then… my mom feels compassion for everyone. Yes, she has an overly, overly kind heart. And of course, if someone tells you that, well, you think about how to help them. So at that moment my mom offers him the iPad. Like, sure, here are some recordings that might be useful to you.

[David]: Jorge Enrique’s iPad, with which he had secretly recorded Martínez and other high-ranking officials from Grupo Aval. 

[Juanita]: It was like a sign that we trusted him and that we had nothing else against him. Yes, like, look, everything you could find against you is right here.

[Carolina]: My mom handed it directly to him. And he took it. Yes, he took it that same day. And they returned it in the afternoon.

[David]: His bodyguards returned it.

[David]: When they told Miguel Ángel about this, he was shocked.

[Miguel Ángel]: With Néstor Humberto Martínez being the custodian of evidence in Colombia as head of the Judicial Police of the Attorney General’s Office, how is it possible that he would take a piece of physical evidence without the natural rigor of a legal process?

[David]: That iPad should have been transported under a chain of custody, as required by law. But according to Miguel Ángel’s investigation, it was not even registered as evidence in the investigation into the deaths.

[Juanita]: The mere fact that he received the iPad outside of any legal procedure is absurd. And if a woman as kind, as… I don’t know, like my mom, offers it to you, you say no. I mean, if you are a decent person—which we already know he is not—but you tell her no, that you can’t, that within your legal powers it is not permitted to have that iPad.

[David]: Miguel Ángel adds that Martínez not only took the iPad and later returned it.

[Miguel Ángel]: We have been able to determine that this iPad was manipulated.

[David]: In order to be able to state this, Miguel Ángel and his team analyzed the iPad and the information it contained. According to him, they found most of the files —emails, photos, videos, recordings—but the information from the years 2016 to 2018 was missing.

[Miguel Ángel]: In other words, here we are also facing the commission of other crimes that must be investigated with rigor.

[David]: At the beginning of this year, 2025, the family and Miguel Ángel filed a complaint against Néstor Humberto Martínez before the Investigation and Accusation Committee of the House of Representatives, the body that investigates attorneys general, both current and former, for possible crimes committed during their time in office. The complaint against Martínez was for concealment, alteration, or destruction of physical evidence. It is a long, bureaucratic, and political process, but if the Committee finds sufficient grounds, it could bring charges against him. In that case, since he is no longer Attorney General, the Supreme Court of Justice would take over the case to try him. If found guilty, he could be sentenced to between four and twelve years in prison.

Martínez has not denied that he received the iPad, but he insists that he did not manipulate it. When we interviewed him in September 2025, we asked him about this issue. He told us that he had also filed a complaint against Miguel Ángel for allegedly fabricating evidence to accuse him, and that Miguel Ángel had already been summoned by the Attorney General’s Office to give sworn testimony. This is Martínez.

[Néstor Humberto]: In that criminal complaint they have asked the lawyer to hand over the iPad. For what? To carry out the forensic work and determine, as it should be determined, whether in fact someone tampered with the operating system of that iPad. Hearings before one judge. Hearings before another judge. A summons for delivery. The iPad never arrives. It does not appear. They do not want to hand it over.

[David]: Miguel Ángel assured me that this is false, that he has always been at the disposal of the Attorney General’s Office not only in relation to this complaint, but also with all the others that have been filed against him from many sectors and that, according to him, have a political background.

Martínez added something about the people who analyzed the iPad. He told us that his lawyer took statements from them and that one of them said that, during the extraction of the information, deleted elements appeared, but that he could not confirm that this had actually happened. Nor could he know who manipulated it or when.

But Miguel Ángel says that the people Martínez is referring to were not the ones who carried out the expert forensic report on the iPad, but rather that, based on that report, they issued conclusions about the findings, among them the deletion of certain information. The person who, according to Miguel Ángel, did examine the device was never questioned. And he maintains that the evidence shows that the only person who had access to the iPad was Martínez.

Even so, Martínez insisted to us that he did not manipulate the iPad, that he did not delete any information.

[Néstor Humberto]: No, I did not do something that vile. For God’s sake. But they cannot drag me to the cemetery of Colombia’s moral life by making this thing up about me. I refuse to believe that the family agrees with raising such a calumny against me based on reports from people who say they did not say that. That is why I have filed a criminal complaint against this man.

[David]: And we asked him how he felt about being reported by Jorge Enrique’s family.

[Néstor Humberto]: The family cannot forget how much I helped Jorge Enrique. I remember when my son would arrive distressed, telling me oh poor Jorge Enrique, that he was going through difficulties, and I helped him. For God’s sake! I helped him. He was always my great friend. And look what happens in the end: that there is an investigation. And that they come up with this story about the iPads. What barbarity! What barbarity! The lawyer… the family cannot condone that. I believe they cannot condone it because it cannot come from their hearts. That the family ends up being the driving force behind an accusation against me. That I erased Jorge Enrique Pizano’s iPad to hide evidence. Listen to this monstrosity!

[David]: So let’s recap everything up to this point: the family and their lawyer filed a complaint against Néstor Humberto Martínez over the iPad. Then Martínez filed a complaint against attorney del Río. According to Martínez, the evidence used to accuse him of having manipulated the iPad was false. That is where things stand on that front.

And as for the case of Alejandro’s death, the Attorney General’s Office appealed the decision not to close it. Now, what Miguel Ángel and the family are seeking is for the investigation into Jorge Enrique’s case to be reopened. They are convinced of how important it is to reexamine everything that can still be reviewed. But they are also realistic: the evidence collected by the Attorney General’s Office is no longer legally valid, and so many years have passed that they no longer even know where it is.

[Juanita]: Like the bottle. We don’t know what happened. The towel, the fingerprints in the house, the security camera recordings. We don’t know what happened to any of that. So I think the big question is: with what are they going to investigate? I have no idea.

[David]: They are even clear that it is very likely they will never fully put together the puzzle of everything that happened. But the more pieces they have, the better.

[Juanita]: There are so many unanswered whys. So I think that more than trying to answer them, it’s about accepting that those whys will always exist and learning how to live with them, and sometimes answering them a little bit, but understanding that I will never answer them completely.

[David]: But for Miguel Ángel there are still things that can be revisited. He has already said it: all the evidence of the irregularities that Jorge Enrique gathered over so many years. But they would also have to locate the workers from the country house, interview them again, and corroborate their testimonies. They also have to review all the times Jorge Enrique made it clear that he feared for his safety and that of his family, and this time truly take into account that, officially, he requested protection from the Attorney General’s Office… in short… to carry out an investigation—this time a truly exhaustive one—in the hope of being able to determine, with certainty, that Jorge Enrique’s death was of natural causes.

[Juanita]: The three of us—my mom, my sister, and I—are seeking the truth, justice, and reparation that are owed to us as victims within the framework of these two criminal proceedings. But that does not mean that I am here saying, like, you killed my family, like you, Luis Carlos Sarmiento, you, Néstor Humberto, killed my father and my brother. I am not saying that. What I am saying is that they behaved very inappropriately— professionally and personally.

[David]: And this last part has been very painful. Feeling that their father was so ignored, so manipulated, so threatened, just for doing his job properly… But Carolina understands that this was her father’s personality…

[Carolina]: My dad always tried to work for the good of the country, in  the public sector, of making the country better. And I think that’s what he did by denouncing corruption. Yes, by denouncing what was done wrong. What I think is… I don’t even think my dad imagined the impact that all of this has had at this point. I think he would be proud of himself.

[David]: And are you?

[Carolina]: Yes, of course. Of course. I just didn’t like the consequence.

[David]: The way the Lava Jato case investigation was handled, which uncovered the Odebrecht corruption scandal—the largest on the continent—has drawn a great deal of criticism in recent years. Some convictions and agreements were annulled or renegotiated. There were also allegations that the investigation process was carried out using illegal practices.

For cooperating with the justice system, Marcelo Odebrecht reduced his sentence from nineteen years to ten, and in 2017 he was granted house arrest. In 2024, Brazil’s Supreme Court annulled the rulings against him on the grounds that due process had been violated, and he regained his freedom.

Odebrecht changed its name and since 2020 has been called Novonor.

In Colombia, from Grupo Aval, only one person was convicted: in 2019, the president of Corficolombiana, José Elías Melo, for having arranged the bribe for the Ruta del Sol II contract. He was sentenced to nearly twelve years in prison, but in 2024, after having served three-fifths of his sentence, he regained his freedom. One year later, although he did not have to return to prison, the Supreme Court upheld that conviction and confirmed that Melo did indeed arrange the bribe.

Colombia’s Superintendence of Industry and Commerce opened an investigation in 2018 into several individuals and companies for Odebrecht-related corruption. Among those investigated was Luis Carlos Sarmiento Gutiérrez, the son of Sarmiento Angulo and president of Grupo Aval at the time. It was not for bribes, but for conflicts of interest. And although the Superintendence also asked the Attorney General’s Office to investigate him for possible crimes, neither of the two proceedings moved forward and both were ultimately shelved.

On the other hand, several things have happened in relation to the Ruta del Sol.

After the Ruta del Sol II scandal, in 2018 the government handed the unfinished project over to a public entity that, due to lack of funds, was unable to make much progress on its construction. Three years later, it was transferred to two private Colombian construction companies so they could complete it. In 2023 they announced that the road was already passable, but the full project is expected to be completed in 2028, almost twenty years after the contract was awarded.

Both presidential campaigns of 2014 were investigated for receiving money from Odebrecht. But in 2024 only one of the candidates, Óscar Iván Zuluaga, and his son, the campaign manager, were formally charged. What most incriminated the candidate from uribismo was a recording in which he discussed the matter with one of those implicated in the corruption network of the Brazilian multinational. The trial has not yet concluded.

Roberto Prieto, the manager of both presidential campaigns of Juan Manuel Santos, was sentenced in 2019 to five years in prison. But not for what happened in Ruta del Sol II, rather for campaign posters that Odebrecht paid for during Santos’s 2010 campaign, and for having received a bribe, personally, in the third stretch of the highway, known as Ruta del Sol III.

That third stretch also remains unfinished and with plans to be completed in 2028. Although Odebrecht and Grupo Aval were not involved, it has suffered delays, multimillion-dollar debts, bankruptcies, and corruption scandals.

As for the Deferred Prosecution Agreement between Corficolombiana, part of Grupo Aval, and the United States Department of Justice, on December 3, 2025, the Colombian government asked the U.S. Attorney’s Office to reveal the identity of the mysterious Colombian Official Number 3, described verbatim in the document as “a high-ranking official of the executive branch of the Colombian government approximately between 2010 and 2018.” One week later, the U.S. Attorney’s Office refused to provide the name.

Now, regarding the investigations by Colombia’s Attorney General’s Office: in 2023 the agency announced that it would formally charge another fifty-five people in the Odebrecht case. Among those individuals there was no one from Grupo Aval, but there were executives from the Brazilian multinational, who remain in their country without facing Colombian justice. In addition, charges were brought against officials from the National Infrastructure Agency, the ANI, including another charge against Luis Fernando Andrade, who was the director of that agency.

Andrade is awaiting a judicial decision in the case related to Ruta del Sol II, and says it could be known in early 2026. Even if he is declared innocent, the Attorney General’s Office continues to investigate him in other cases, such as corruption in Ruta del Sol III. Although he has been formally charged three times for that, all three times a judge has rejected the charges.

At this moment, a bill known as the Jorge Enrique Pizano Law is moving forward in Congress. Its goal is to protect those who report acts of corruption.

Credits:

[David]: La Ruta del Sol is a podcast by Central, the series channel of Radio Ambulante Studios, and is part of the My Cultura podcast network of iHeartRadio.

Reporting and production for this episode were done by me, David Trujillo. The lead editor is Camila Segura, with additional editing by Daniel Alarcón, Silvia Viñas, and Eliezer Budasoff. Eliezer is the project manager. Fact-checking was done by Bruno Scelza and Sergio Sebastián Retavisca. Camilo Vallejo conducted the legal review. Sound design and mixing were done by Martín Cruz, with original music by Andrés Nusser. The graphic design and art direction of the series were done by Diego Corzo.

Product development for La Ruta del Sol was led by Natalia Ramírez. Digital production was done by Nelson Rauda and Óscar Luna, with support from Lina Rincón and Samantha Proaño, from the Radio Ambulante Studios audience team.

La Ruta del Sol was recorded at Fiona Records.

At iHeart, the executive producers are Arlene Santana and Leo Gomez.

We would like to thank FLIP for its valuable support in the legal review of this production and for its advice on security matters.

Carolina Guerrero is the executive producer of Central and the CEO of Radio Ambulante Studios.

You can follow us on social media as Central Podcast and subscribe to our newsletter at centralpodcast.audio.

I’m David Trujillo. And this was La Ruta del Sol. Thank you for listening.

Episode 9 | The Attorney General

El fiscal

[David]: January 11, 2019. Two months had passed since the deaths of the Pizanos, and the scandal surrounding them had only kept growing. The outrage was so intense that, in the streets people were now demanding the head of the then Attorney General.

Archive

[Protests]: The Attorney General is going to burn, the Attorney General is going to burn, the Attorney General is going to burn.

[Juan Camilo Merlano]: In different cities across the country, demonstrations were held against the Attorney General of the Nation, Néstor Humberto Martínez.

[Protests]: Attorney General, thug, paramilitary, and murderer.

[Protests]: Take to the streets to bring down the corrupt Attorney General.

[Protests]: Hehehe, dude, this is a bribe. Hehehe, dude, this is a bribe.

[Wilson Moreno]: The most symbolic moment of the sit-in at the bunker, in Bogotá, was when protesters burned the flag of the Attorney General’s Office. At least 2,000 people arrived at the main headquarters of the prosecuting authority demanding the resignation of Néstor Humberto Martínez.

[David]: A month earlier, the Supreme Court had finally chosen an ad hoc prosecutor—that is, a prosecutor appointed specifically for the Odebrecht case. But for some, that decision was not enough, because out of the dozens of lines of investigation in this case, this new prosecutor took on only three, the same ones from which the then Attorney General had recused himself due to conflicts of interest.

But  people were demanding that Martínez step aside entirely from the institution, not just from three lines of investigation. Two organizations, DeJusticia and the Colombian Commission of Jurists, even called for his election as Attorney General to be annulled because, according to them, the Supreme Court had chosen him without knowing about his possible conflicts of interest. But their lawsuit was ultimately rejected because it was filed too late, almost three years after the election.

Two weeks after the protests, Martínez held a press conference to announce something very important.

[Néstor Humberto Martínez]: Good morning. The Attorney General’s Office of the Nation wishes today to inform the country, for reasons of general interest, of the final results of the investigation that began in connection with the death of Dr. Alejandro Pizano Ponce de León.

[David]: The Pizano family already knew where this was headed; they had already accepted that the Attorney General’s Office would close the investigation into Alejandro’s death. But this was the first time the country was being informed about the process.

Martínez began by talking about the flavored water bottle and said that it had been established that Jorge Enrique always had it in his possession. The evidence was a video from a month before his death showing him purchasing similar bottles at a supermarket.

[Néstor Humberto]: The camera shows Dr. Pizano passing through the checkout line and confirms the type of beverage he bought.

[David]: As we already recounted in previous episodes, he also mentioned that Jorge Enrique’s DNA was found on the mouth of the bottle, and he revealed that the housemaid said that the day before the death…

[Néstor Humberto]: She saw him approach the kitchen and take a wooden spoon out from one of the drawers while carrying a bottle of water in his hand. According to the statement, Mr. Pizano Callejas took both objects to a bathroom on the second floor and locked himself in there for several minutes. In that same bathroom, days later, a container of potassium cyanide was found. In addition, the Attorney General’s Office obtained various testimonies from third parties and from his own psychiatrist, indicating that on several occasions Dr. Jorge Enrique Pizano stated, at different times and places, that one option in his life journey was the consumption of a toxin.

[David]: Martínez also spoke about the to-do list that was on Jorge Enrique’s desk and said that the same housemaid had seen it on the day of his death.

[Néstor Humberto]: And in the statement she gave to the Attorney General’s Office, she said that while doing her cleaning chores that morning, she saw the flavored water bottle on Dr. Jorge Enrique Pizano’s desk and approached to pick it up. She recounts in her testimony that the cap was slightly loose and that she herself tightened it.

[David]: Martínez asserted that no one entered the house again between November 9 and 11—Jorge Enrique, remember, died on the 8th—and that the bottle remained there until the family found it the day Alejandro died. He then said that, based on testimonies and documentary and technical evidence, the Attorney General’s Office had made a decision regarding the case.

[Néstor Humberto]: Mr. Pizano died in an accidental manner after drinking the beverage that was on his father’s desk. In this way, from a judicial standpoint, this investigation is concluded. The case of the profoundly painful death of Alejandro Pizano Ponce de León is hereby closed.

[David]: And since the report for Jorge Enrique’s autopsy, conducted by a private expert at the hospital, concluded that his death was of natural causes, there was nothing else to investigate.

[Néstor Humberto]: In making public this documentation and the decision taken by the Attorney General’s Office, the Attorney General’s Office asks the national public opinion—and of course the international community—for special respect for the memory of Jorge Enrique and Alejandro Pizano. And in the most respectful manner, we ask everyone not to revictimize their family. Peace upon the graves of Jorge Enrique Pizano and Alejandro Pizano. Thank you very much.

[David]: Although the Pizano case was closed, Martínez continued to be  caught up in media storms. And not only because of this case, but also due to others related to bribery and the manipulation of judicial proceedings. But there was one in particular, too complex to explain in detail here, which involved a clash between the Attorney General’s Office and the transitional justice system over the case of a former leader of the FARC guerrillas. That happened almost three years after Martínez’s term as Attorney General began, and it was because of this case that he came out to issue the following statement.

Archive

[Néstor Humberto]: My conscience and my devotion to the rule of law do not allow it. Therefore, I have submitted my irrevocable resignation from the position of Attorney General of the Nation.

[David]: A few days later, the ad hoc prosecutor who had been appointed to handle three lines of investigation in the Odebrecht case submitted his final report to the Supreme Court. I contacted that prosecutor, Leonardo Espinosa, to talk about his findings, but he did not respond.

[David]:  In his report, which resulted from a five-month investigation, he said that he had found, among other things, that the Attorney General’s Office did not bring significant charges against certain key figures in the Odebrecht corruption scheme; that in some cases several crimes they had already been charged with were dropped; and that arrest warrants against the leaders of Odebrecht in Colombia were not properly recorded, allowing them to leave the country without any problem. He also requested that two other prosecutors who had been in charge of the case be investigated for these irregularities.

Archive

[María Camila Orozco]: The outgoing ad hoc prosecutor also said that he referred to this investigation as an iceberg, and that he only managed to reach a very small percentage of the Odebrecht investigation within those three lines of inquiry.

[Silvia Charry]: And one final detail: the outgoing ad hoc prosecutor, Leonardo Espinosa, says that at the time he informed the Attorney General —now former Attorney General—Néstor Humberto Martínez of all these irregularities, but that he never received a response.

[David]: After his resignation, Martínez stepped away from the public sector and returned to working with his clients and practicing commercial law. He began writing a weekly opinion column in El Tiempo, the newspaper owned by Luis Carlos Sarmiento Angulo—the same one that had chosen him as Person of the Year in 2017. He also published a book criticizing the peace process with the FARC. He very rarely discussed the Pizano case again, until he spoke with us…

[Néstor Humberto]: As I told you in one of the emails we exchanged, I had decided a long time ago not to speak about these issues again. Because I think it’s better to let history and justice evolve. But it struck me as a nice opportunity to look for a different outlet—one that knows how to do radio differently and isn’t steeped in the political conflicts we’re living through in Colombia today, which are really messed up.

[David]: From Central Series and Radio Ambulante Studios, this is La Ruta del Sol.

I’m David Trujillo. Episode 9: The Attorney General.

In early September 2025, Néstor Humberto Martínez agreed to give us an interview. As he already said, he had gone years without speaking about the Pizano case.

[Néstor Humberto]: And I have kept a precise and methodical silence. But of course, I’ve been gathering a lot of information, right? I’ve acquired a lot of information. There is nothing opinion-based here.

[David]: We met in a recording studio in Bogotá in late September. His bodyguards arrived first to inspect the place, and once they confirmed everything was fine, Martínez arrived. He entered the studio alone, sat down in front of one of the microphones, and placed a briefcase full of documents on the chair next to him. With me was Daniel Alarcón, the executive producer of Radio Ambulante Studios and one of the editors of this series. Before continuing, be aware that the interview lasted about three hours, and you can listen to it in its entirety on our website, centralpodcast.audio.

[David]: That afternoon when we interviewed him, Daniel started with the questions:

[Daniel Alarcón]: I personally… I was very curious to understand why… I mean, what was your goal with this conversation? Because it would have been very easy to ignore the email or say no thanks…

[Néstor Humberto]: Why did I do it?

[Daniel]: Yes.

[Néstor Humberto]: Because look, when this was news in Colombia, it was very contaminated by political interests. The left wanted to make me pay for my positions on the peace process. And the entire left mobilized, along with a segment of society… I think I carried out the biggest anti-corruption program that has ever been done in Colombia, a program called Bolsillos de Cristal, dealing with very sensitive cases. I mean, that program was wonderful—it touched an entire layer of corruption.

[David]: As we had already mentioned in another episode, Bolsillos de Cristal was perhaps the most emblematic program of his tenure as Attorney General, and with it he promised to fight corruption. When he resigned, in May 2019, Martínez announced that thanks to that plan there were 3,000 people charged in cases involving billions of dollars. But critics of that program insist that the figure is not at all clear because it’s not known what happened to those 3,000 people—whether they were convicted, whether they went to prison, or if they were innocent. Some even said that the numbers were inflated.

But Martínez assured us that many of those people did end up in prison as a result  of his fight against corruption, and that they themselves have been responsible for publicly discrediting him. And although he said that when he was Attorney General it was very difficult to debate with his critics, he was now willing to answer questions.

[Néstor Humberto]: And in that sense, well, it’s always better to show up when programs and things like this happen. Why? Did you find it unusual that I agreed?

[David]: Well, after so many years, yes, it did seem curious to me that you would agree—and that you would agree to give us an interview.

[Néstor Humberto]: But the thing is, if there are people who talk, who are still discussing the subject, well then they have some interest. Always– I learned that in life, who speaks has an interest. So I also have my interest, and it is to tell a documented story, right? So that public opinion can form its own judgment.

[David]: Almost fifteen minutes in—after introductions and after talking a bit about his background and what he currently does—we arrived at the topic that matters for this story.

And getting a bit more into the issue that brings us together today, we would like to know how you met Jorge Enrique Pizano. How did that relationship begin?

[Néstor Humberto]: Jorge Enrique was the father of one of my son Humberto’s best friends. In fact, at the Gimnasio Moderno, they were friends from first grade. And Jorge Enrique and I accompanied them throughout their adolescence. Later they graduated. Each went on with his professional life. Alejandro became an architect. My son Humberto became an economist. But they remained great friends, and because of that friendship I came to know a lot about Jorge Enrique’s personal life—he had ups and downs, he would leave positions, he had some professional gaps. And his son Alejandro would always tell my son Humberto: “Man, my dad is out of work; it would be good if there were some way to help him.” And I was able to help him a few times in his life.

[David]: He says he helped him, for example, resolve a very complicated corruption case when he worked at a company related to water services, and that he even helped him get the position as general manager of the Bogotá Aqueduct. After that, they grew apart for a while.

[Néstor Humberto]: And then, well, I stopped seeing him because of my positions and I began working with the government and up to that point we were… until all these Odebrecht issues came along in which he became involved.

[David]: But did you know when he started working with Corficolombiana? And with the Ruta del Sol?

[Néstor Humberto]: No, I did not know about that. At that time, for that position, I was not involved. 

[David]: From there, we moved on to trying to understand Martínez’s relationship with Luis Carlos Sarmiento Angulo, the owner of Grupo Aval.

[David]: Since when were you working with Luis Carlos Sarmiento, or what was your relationship with him like?

[Néstor Humberto]: At a certain point, I was the leading advisor in banking law in Colombia. I advised Grupo Aval, Grupo Social; I advised Citibank in Colombia; I advised Grupo Colpatria—very important, a client of mine. I also advised Grupo Davivienda.

[David]: And were you specifically hired as an advisor on the Ruta del Sol  project at any point?

[Néstor Humberto]: Never. And that is very interesting, because part of the unfounded claims that have been made is that I was the advisor and that from day one I knew everything about Ruta del Sol, about the consortium. Never. The Ruta del Sol was awarded in 2009, and the lawyer for the Ruta del Sol Consortium was the former Inspector General, Carlos Gustavo Arrieta. I had nothing to do with that public bidding process. So what they pin on me—that no, that I knew everything from day one—is a lie.

[David]: He said that it was not from day one, but he did confirm to us that he did advise the Ruta del Sol II consortium. It is known that this was in at least three matters. They are complex legal mechanisms, but I will mention them anyway. One was a legal stability agreement that was signed in 2012. It later became known that this stability agreement was secured through bribes, although Martínez has always said that he knew nothing about that. That same year, he also gave them a legal opinion for the addition of a section to that highway.  And four years later, in 2016, he drafted the settlement agreement through which Grupo Aval and Odebrecht renounced mutual claims. That contract—the one we talked about in previous episodes—was the one revealed by journalist María Jimena Duzán.

[David]: Martínez told us that for the legal opinion on the additional section, he was hired by the consortium at the request of Grupo Aval, not Odebrecht.

[Néstor Humberto]: The consortium, not Odebrecht, because I was advising Grupo Aval. I didn’t know the Brazilians; it was because I knew Grupo Aval.

[David]: After this interview, when we were fact-checking the information, we found that legal opinion. Journalist Iván Serrano had already published it, and it was addressed directly to Eder Paolo Ferracuti, the president of the consortium, who was from Odebrecht. Ferracuti was later investigated by the Colombian authorities and sanctioned by the Inspector General’s Office for his participation in the Brazilian multinational’s corruption scheme.

[David]: After almost forty minutes of conversation, we moved on to the topic of the meetings in which Jorge Enrique showed him what he had found.

And now, moving a bit toward 2015: why does Jorge Enrique Pizano go to you and have these well-known meetings, and seek you out to tell you what he had discovered?

[Néstor Humberto]: That is very interesting. First, I’ve already told you that Jorge Enrique and I built a very beautiful friendship. 

Unfortunately, today that friendship is even disavowed, despite the fact that I helped him so many times in his professional life and that my son and Jorge Enrique’s son built a friendship that went beyond closeness—they were truly like brothers, completely like brothers. Well, in 2015, when I left the Ministry of the Presidency, he sought me out. I had already returned to my private life. I went back to my office and went to take a break in Spain. And while I was in Spain, he called me and said: “Hey, I urgently need you because the Brazilians are stealing from Dr. Sarmiento.” The version Jorge Enrique gave me was that they were stealing from him and that he had some evidence and wanted to show it to me because he had tried to use the regular channels and no one was paying attention to him.

[David]: Martínez said that he asked Sarmiento Angulo for authorization to meet with Jorge Enrique and receive the documents. As we already know, they met twice.

[Néstor Humberto]: And so, at that meeting on August 19, 2015, he began to tell me what was going on. It’s a shame he only recorded audio and not video. It would have been extremely interesting because the situation was terrible.

[Daniel]: If you could take us back to that scene so we can understand… I’d like to see what the video would show that the audio doesn’t capture.

[Néstor Humberto]: Oh, because those were very theatrical situations. We were talking… you listen to that audio and you think, wow, those conversations. It’s also a bit my style of speech—very colloquial with him. I would stand up and say: “Dude, but this is… I mean, say it, is it true? Yes or no,  that this is a bribe. Say it—this must be a bribe, right?” I would stand up and sort of shout and act it out, and Jorge Enrique never got up from his chair. I remember that. And he would say, “Man, well, I really don’t know.” His interest was for Dr. Sarmiento to see the papers and for the case to be investigated. 

[David]: And in that meeting, with what he was talking about and what he was showing you, what were you able to see, or what could you infer?

[Néstor Humberto]: Well, I think it’s best summed up in the phrase that was recorded: “We’re in trouble.” We didn’t know whether this was corruption abroad, corruption in Colombia, whether these were paramilitaries or… because it could have been an unlawful levy, that they were demanding money, or it could be that they were simply stealing, just stealing the company’s money. That was really my thinking.

[David]: In the second meeting, which took place a few days later, we already know that Martínez read out a list of crimes prepared by a criminal defense lawyer. We wanted to ask him specifically about that.

And if you’ll allow me, I’m going to play an audio clip that you yourself already mentioned. And I’m going to turn up the volume.

[Néstor Humberto]: Bribes, money laundering, falsification of private documents, disloyal administration, breach of trust, fraud, aggravated theft by trust, embezzlement by appropriation.

[David]: So there you are, reading the opinion of the criminal lawyer. At that point, did you already have clarity about what was actually going on?

[Néstor Humberto]: No. What the criminal lawyer says is: based on the information you give me, these are the crimes. But if you notice, some crimes contradict others. In other words, when you say, for example, fraud, you can’t talk about corruption, because it’s either bribery or fraud.

[David]: That is Martínez’s interpretation, because crimes may or may not coincide depending on the full picture of the facts being analyzed.

[Néstor Humberto]: So this is an inventory of crimes. The report the lawyer ends with says: in order to be able to specify and know how to proceed, a forensic audit of all these documents must be carried out, and only then can it truly be concluded what this is. That’s what the lawyer’s opinion says, and that was ultimately done. I speak with Sarmiento, they appoint their audit committee with the head auditor, Dr. Rafael Neira. They bring Jorge Enrique into that work to understand what is going on, and they move forward in determining which things may be inexplicable and what conduct may be involved. And that audit work was carried out by Grupo Aval, with Jorge Enrique included.

[David]: Jorge Enrique also recorded a conversation with Rafael Neira, the person Martínez mentioned, who was the Vice President and Controller  of Grupo Aval, and he also handed over his findings to him. In his interview with Noticias Uno, Jorge Enrique said that he learned that after the audits, Grupo Aval met with Odebrecht without him. From those meetings with Odebrecht came the settlement agreement not to sue each other.

And then Daniel asked Martínez once again about the recording Jorge Enrique made of the two of them.

[Daniel]: And how do you interpret it now that your close friend recorded that conversation? That—

[Néstor Humberto]: That’s the best of all questions. 

[Daniel]: Okay. Let’s see. Because, doesn’t it feel a bit like a betrayal?

[David]: After the break, Martínez continues answering.

We’ll be right back.

We’re back on Ruta del Sol.

So… Daniel asked Martínez how he interpreted the fact that Jorge Enrique had recorded him.

[Daniel]: Doesn’t it feel a bit like him betraying you? 

[Néstor Humberto]: No.

[Daniel]: Okay.

[Néstor Humberto]: When I first spoke to the widow after his death and I said to her, Nena, why did Jorge Enrique record me?, she told me: “He recorded everyone. It’s not that he recorded me—he recorded all of his conversations. That frees me from thinking that Jorge Enrique was thinking about me. But why would he have been thinking about me if I was devoted to my professional life and later to my public life? I had no contact with those people; he never saw me involved in any of that. In other words, he comes to me because of our friendship and because he knows that I am the channel through which he can make the documents reach Sarmiento.

[David]: Later in our interview, Martínez returned to this issue of why he believed he had been recorded, and added the following about the conversation he had with Jorge Enrique’s wife.

[Néstor Humberto]: So what she tells me is… it was very painful. And he recorded and made the decision to release the recordings—this is the version I heard that day—because anyone who listens to those recordings knows that you and he are in a shared predicament, trying to figure out what is going on. It’s not that Jorge Enrique, the great investigator—she didn’t say that, I’m saying it—it’s not that Jorge Enrique, the great investigator, is taking a confrontational stance against some guy, telling him, “Look, all this is happening and you’re doing nothing.” No. It’s him and me trying to see what this is. Because of the trust he placed in me by handing over that information to me. So they thought about it a lot and believed that if it were made public, the widow says, it would make it clear that the two of us were on the same side of the movie. In every movie there are good guys and bad guys in every story, and that we were on the same side.

[David]: Jorge Enrique’s wife has never wanted to give public statements and, as we’ve told you, she didn’t want to be a part of this story either. That is why we have not mentioned her name throughout the entire series. I asked her daughters about what Martínez said, and they responded that it was not that Jorge Enrique recorded all of his conversations, but rather that he recorded some work-related ones in order to have documentation of those meetings.

And when you receive that information, you say you take it to Luis Carlos Sarmiento, as Jorge Enrique asked you to do. What else did you do?

[Néstor Humberto]: Absolutely nothing else. I was never even on the audit committees, I was not involved in the investigations. Well, from the beginning I told them, I am not a criminal lawyer, so I do not get involved in those matters.

[David]: And then the issue of what happened after the settlement agreement. My question is not so much why that agreement was made, but rather: knowing that there were irregularities, let’s call them that, why were they not reported to the authorities?

[Néstor Humberto]: I can give you the answer I have to give there: I was a lawyer in possession of that information, and constitutionally there is a duty of professional confidentiality regarding that information. In other words, with that information, as  the lawyer I was—not just in Colombia but anywhere in the world, there is absolutely nothing I can do.  Whatever had to be done had to be done by the client. Not by me.

[Daniel]: What confuses me is how someone goes from being, say, a private lawyer with clients, in a relationship where this privilege exists, and then becomes Attorney General, where the duty is to investigate irregularities that you may already have known about before. So how is that transition handled? Because the responsibilities are different, and if one is Attorney General, the client is really the Colombian people.

[Néstor Humberto]: That’s very important, because you have to understand how criminal investigations work. The Attorney General does not conduct criminal investigations. It’s that simple. The investigations are carried out by the prosecutors—5,600 autonomous and independent prosecutors that the country has.

[Daniel]: So then, what is the role of the Attorney General? Is it like in the United States when they appoint a sort of Independent Counsel and you say, “Okay, this person handles it and I stay out of it”?

[Néstor Humberto]: No, no, because in this case prosecutors are assigned. I never assigned that case. I never assigned it. They are autonomous and independent prosecutors, with one additional element: the Attorney General—or rather, the Attorney General’s Office—handles 1.8 million cases a year. And people collectively assume that the Attorney General handles those 1.8 million cases. No. That’s not possible. That’s not serious. That’s not true. What does the Attorney General do? The Attorney General focuses on criminal policy in relation to the permanent state, with Congress. During my term, that meant being fundamentally involved in all the coordination and construction of the entire legal framework of the peace process. In formulating prioritization policy. For example, I prioritized—I prioritized, and the results can never be taken away from my administration—the fight against corruption.

[David]: Regarding his election as Attorney General, we asked him whether, when he was being considered as part of the shortlist, he had informed the Supreme Court that he might have conflicts of interest.

Did you mention to them, did you tell them, that some cases involving your former clients might later be investigated by the Attorney General’s Office you could be leading? Did you mention that to the Court at any point?

[Néstor Humberto]: That’s another of my detractor’s arguments. They say, “Ah, but you should have told the Court such and such.” Let’s see. My law firm was one of the largest and most reputable law firms in the country. In other words, I had connections throughout the entire business sector. In fact, some journalist at the time, when I was nominated, said to me: “But don’t you have conflicts of interest? Because you…” And I answered somewhat dismissively: “Well, it’s just that I don’t advise criminals; I don’t practice criminal law.” That was my response. When I was nominated, no one in Colombia had any inkling of the Odebrecht issue—no one. That issue emerged here on December 21, 2016, when I was already Attorney General of the Nation. So how are they going to ask me to be a sorcerer and pull out a fortune-teller’s wand and say, “No, later on this is going to happen”? No. Many things happened.

[David]: And at that point Martínez returned to the argument that Jorge Enrique, at the moment when he recorded the conversations between the two of them, didn’t know either that what he had found might be related to crimes. He mentioned a statement Jorge Enrique gave in January 2018 before an arbitration tribunal, when he was asked about this specific issue.

[Néstor Humberto]: And Jorge Enrique, under oath, says: “At that moment I did not know that a crime had been committed, as we might be able to know today.” It couldn’t be more authentic than that. In other words, that he went to me to say, “Look at this corruption”—no. That was not the case. That was not how it happened.

[David]: Although later, in a recording from the Superintendency—

[Néstor Humberto]: Of Industry and Commerce.

[David]: He says: Go and ask Néstor Humberto Martínez, he knows everything.

I was referring to this recording of testimony given by Jorge Enrique in August 2018, when Martínez had already been Attorney General for two years, and which Caracol News revealed a few days after his death. In it, he desperately says that he told high-ranking officials from Grupo Aval about his findings, including Martínez, and that nothing happened.

Archive

[Jorge Enrique Pizano]: I hope they summon Dr. Néstor Humberto Martínez Neira to this witness stand and ask him. Or Alberto Mariño, or Mauricio Millán himself, whom I haven’t mentioned, that I told them these things. And what action… what happened? Nothing.

[David]: After the break, his response. We’ll be right back.

We’re back on La Ruta del Sol.

Before the break, I mentioned  to  Martínez the recording of Jorge Enrique Pizano’s testimony at the Superintendency of Industry and Commerce. It’s a video from August 2018 in which Jorge Enrique says that three years earlier he had told high-ranking officials at Grupo Aval—including Martínez—about his findings, and that nothing had happened.

[Néstor Humberto]: Very interesting, because you’re bringing up  a subject that is very important. What happened? What happened was the following, which is a sad part of all this.

[David]: According to Martínez, there is a backstory that explains Jorge Enrique’s statement. And it has to do with the falling apart of that friendship.

First, Martínez reminded us of the investigation that the Attorney General’s Office opened against Jorge Enrique for allegedly having received a bribe from Odebrecht when he was director of the Bogotá Aqueduct. Martínez emphasized that by the time he arrived at the Attorney General’s Office, that case was already underway.

[Néstor Humberto]: They’ve said—no, that it was, that I… There’s been so much malice and so much infamy. As if I had somehow dishonored that relationship. That I opened a special investigation against Jorge Enrique Pizano to break him, to subdue him, because he supposedly knew everything about the Odebrecht case. Well, look here: this is my WhatsApp conversation with Jorge Enrique. I’m going to commit the indiscretion of showing you what Jorge Enrique wrote to me in 2017:
“Dr. Néstor Humberto, good morning. I read El Tiempo today, truly far-fetched. A prosecutor named Valbueno—actually it’s Valbuena—has not known how to involve me in issues I haven’t taken part in for seven years.”

[David]: In that message Martínez read to us, and that we were able to see on his phone, Jorge Enrique tells him about the Aqueduct issue—that he had nothing to do with it, that a prosecutor had offered him a deal but he had rejected it. Martínez continued reading.

[Néstor Humberto]: I’ve been under investigation for four years. Jorge Enrique himself, in February 2017, tells me that he has been under investigation for four years—and they say I set up that investigation against him. Don’t be scoundrels. Don’t be vile. He himself told me that; he made me aware of it. I didn’t know.

[David]: Why do you think he sent you that message at that moment?

[Néstor Humberto]: Because I was his friend. And I was his lifeline. Obviously. What any normal person would do—grab the life preserver to see how to get out of that situation. Here is my reply. And that day my problems with Jorge Enrique, my friend, begin. That same day—you can see it here—I tell him: Jorge Enrique, I’m sorry, but you know my private phone is for personal matters. If you’re interested in submitting any formal request to the Attorney General’s Office, you can certainly do so. That’s what an honorable Attorney General would do—even with a friend. Of course, I could have called him to my house: Dear Jorge Enrique, let’s see what we can do.” No. All of that had to be handled through the judicial process. He had no reason to come to me. Go and speak with the prosecutors handling the case. That frustrated him a great deal. And I understand it, because we were very close friends, and that naturally caused enormous dismay in his family—of course it did. But do you think I had any other option? I had no other option at all.

[David]: According to Martínez, this is what caused the relationship between the two of them to deteriorate. He also told us that it was at that point that Jorge Enrique began looking for ways out of the problem he was in, and that’s why he contacted journalist María Jimena Duzán, who—according to Martínez—convinced him to begin a strategy to discredit the Attorney General’s Office.

[Daniel]: So, if when he wrote to you and said, Please help me, I’m in this situation, and you said this is my private phone. If you want to do it, it’s somewhere else. If you had said yes, let’s see friend, let’s see what we can do,  would those audios never have come out?

[Néstor Humberto]: Oh no. They never would have come out. Of course they wouldn’t have. But in between there were many more factors of pressure against me. As I told you, my son was living in New York; they had him travel to Barcelona, where Alejandro was living, and he went as his close friend to visit him there with his wife. And my son told me that the whole time he kept telling him to talk to his father so that he wouldn’t do anything to Jorge Enrique. That’s the story. That’s what’s behind all of this. So the whole story has to be told.

[David]: Martínez told us that although the relationship with Jorge Enrique had indeed broken down, there was a moment when he thought things might improve. It was at the funeral of Martínez’s sister, in August 2018, three months before Jorge Enrique died.

[Néstor Humberto]: Jorge Enrique went to the funeral. I thought that was very noble of him. He came up to me and hugged me. Later, his son told me that he had appreciated that very much, because there had been a doubt of whether I had stopped caring for him or whether I was after him or something like that.

[David]: Martínez was left with a good feeling. But he told us that two days later he received a new message from Jorge Enrique. That one, he didn’t show us. According to Martínez, Jorge Enrique deleted it because, apparently, he had sent it to the wrong person—it was actually meant for his son Alejandro. But Martínez assured us that even though Jorge Enrique deleted it, he had already read it.

[Néstor Humberto]: That message that Jorge Enrique deleted, two days after my sister’s death, said something like: “Hey, that’s it, I’m desperate now. I’m going to stir up a media mess. That’s the only thing left for my defense.” Something along those lines—that’s what he said. So since I had already read it, I wrote back to him. What does it say there?

[David]: And he showed us his reply in the chat. He read it aloud.

[Néstor Humberto]: So I wrote back: “Wow!”—with exclamation marks.

[David]: And then he read to us the message Jorge Enrique sent in response.

[Néstor Humberto]: And it says: “I made a mistake. It was for Alejandro Pizano. It was for Alejandro, telling him that I can’t stand anymore the threats from prosecutor Zettien, acting on instructions from above to mess up Pizano, that they let my lawyer know, and that I want to explain to the media that I’m not a criminal. Will you forgive me? I know this is your personal phone. My apologies. I’m very distressed.”
So do you see how he changed his strategy? After that, he started looking for foreign authorities, he started reaching out to Colombian journalists—for what he told me on August 9: “I’m going to make a scandal, I can’t take it anymore.” He really changed his strategy so that the Attorney General’s Office wouldn’t investigate him. That’s my conclusion. And in the face of that strategy, I unfortunately end up being a victim of all this. Because if I had stepped in, if I had improperly interfered in that case, he would have been calm and nothing would have happened. And everyone would be very happy. But that is not how justice works, nor is that my character.

[David]: And at that point I brought up Jorge Enrique’s desperation over what he believed was persecution by the Attorney General’s Office—his conviction that his communications were being intercepted.

Jorge Enrique later said, in that Noticias Uno interview, that he felt there was a persecution, more than just a legal proceeding, so to speak.

[Néstor Humberto]: And that’s understandable, understandable. Anyone in those circumstances feels like they’re being persecuted. And that was the idea that was sold to him.

[David]: He talked about possible wiretaps, about calls being tapped, about people listening to his conversations at home. What can you say about that? He said it was all orchestrated by the Attorney General’s Office.

[Néstor Humberto]: Well, I don’t know—I don’t know if his phone was being intercepted. You know that when there are investigations, the phones of those under investigation can be intercepted. Today, in response to your question, I can tell you under oath that I don’t know.

[David]: I then moved on to talk about the protection that Jorge Enrique himself had requested from the Attorney General’s Office, because he felt that his safety and that of his family were at risk.

About the issue of him having requested protection from Amparo Cerón—directly from you.

[Néstor Humberto]: No, never directly from me, because he wasn’t speaking to me.

[David]: He sent a letter to the Attorney General’s Office.

[Néstor Humberto]: Yes, and I’ll start by telling you that the Attorney General receives 8,000 letters a day, every day addressed by name: “Mr. Néstor Martínez, Attorney General.” And there are units of, I don’t know how many, maybe 50 people who distribute those letters among all the different offices. I never knew that he had requested security.

[David]: And would you have granted it?

[Néstor Humberto]: But of course. If I had known, I would have given Jorge Enrique protection. But look how telling this is, how curious—this is yet another one of the vile things people have said about me—so I brought the documents.

[David]: As we said earlier, Martínez arrived at this interview with a briefcase full of documents. At that moment, he took one out and began to explain it to us.

[Néstor Humberto]: Let’s see, the story is this: on August 14, 2018, Jorge Enrique Pizano wrote to Dr. Amparo Cerón requesting protection for his family. He had testified in June of that year, remember? So he was having security concerns, and those concerns had to be legitimate. Then Amparo Cerón, who is a prosecutor, wrote to the National Director of Protection and Assistance on August 21, 2018, and said: “Please grant protection.” And this is sacred—these are the documents. An auditor once taught me that papers speak for themselves.
On September 11, 2018, the Director of Protection and Assistance says: “In response to the request for protection from Mr. Jorge Enrique Pizano, I hereby inform you that, by means of an act dated today, it was decided not to include him in the protection program. This decision was made because, after conducting the technical threat and risk assessment, the necessary elements to incorporate him as a beneficiary of the protection program were not found, considering that he did not give his consent for possible inclusion and therefore did not meet the requirements of Article Two of Resolution [number] of 2016. This information is confidential.”

He did not enter the protection program because he did not sign the document by which he would agree to submit to the protection protocol. Those who are placed under protection are moved to undisclosed apartments paid for by the Attorney General’s Office, and they are given special security details. I don’t know if that seemed acceptable to Jorge Enrique, or if it didn’t appeal to him—whatever the reason. The fact is, it was he who chose not to enter the protection program. Here is the letter. For everything, I have a paper and a document, and I have spent these past six years gathering them, because this is about the integrity of the Attorney General’s Office and the integrity of my own honor.

[David]: I continued asking him about the statements made against him by the former anti-corruption prosecutor. That former prosecutor, remember, ended up in prison precisely for corruption.

And about the accusations made by Luis Gustavo Moreno, which he has been making since 2020 and 2021.

In interviews with María Jimena Duzán, Moreno said that Martínez appointed him to that position in order to run a corrupt machinery inside the Attorney General’s Office.

[Néstor Humberto]: I’ll start by saying that Luis Gustavo Moreno is also another convicted individual. All these people who circle around and who have said something share one thing in common: they were investigated and convicted during the term of Néstor Humberto Martínez. The case of Moreno was extremely painful. I entrusted him completely with the most important program I had at the Attorney General’s Office, which was the Anti-Corruption Program. And I did so because one of my best friends recommended him, and he had a résumé as a distinguished university professor. And then it became necessary to arrest Moreno, and later came his conviction. He has shown a great deal of remorse, which I find wonderful.

And then he said: “Yes, but Néstor Humberto Martínez appointed Amparo Cerón so that she would handle the case.” What did Amparo Cerón do as soon as those statements by Luis Gustavo Moreno became public? She filed a criminal complaint against him. And that woman would die for her honor—rightly so. That is what we honorable citizens must do when corruption chases us: go to the justice system. But people don’t even bother to look into those investigations.

[David]: Nearly two and a half hours into the interview, we returned to the story of Jorge Enrique…

How did you receive the news of Jorge Enrique’s death, and then, Alejandro’s? How did you experience that moment?

[Néstor Humberto]: That was very painful—very painful—because, whether people believe it today or not, it hurts that the family allowed themselves to be fed certain stories. But they know that I was a genuine friend to Jorge Enrique.

[David]: And in the midst of that tragedy, did you regret anything at that moment, or did you feel you could have done something more for Jorge Enrique at that time?

[Néstor Humberto]: Look, what they accuse me of is having sped up a process that I didn’t even know existed. They say I reopened the case. I already showed you that Jorge Enrique himself told me he had been dealing with that for four years. In other words, I had nothing to do with that mess. I could have regretted it if I had said, Well, I could have intervened in that process. And as has been done so many times in this country, shelved the investigation, locked it away. But I didn’t do that. And in that moral and human dilemma, I ask myself: did I act rightfully? And I have to answer: I acted rightfully. I couldn’t offer Jorge Enrique hope outside of what was in the case files.

[David]: Although we initially thought the interview would last no more than an hour, we ended up talking about many topics for around three hours. At the end, Martínez gathered all the documents he had been taking out and putting on the table. He organized them and put them away in his briefcase. We said goodbye.

In the next episode, the last in this series, we’ll hear from him again. And from the Pizano family as well, of course.

[Carolina Pizano]: Once we were able to manage the grief, to be a bit calmer, to a certain extent, you start to realize that, for our grieving process, it’s also necessary to have the intention of clarifying what happened. It’s very easy to say, I’m not going to think about that, I’ll just think about the nice things that happened, about the good things. Yes, about the family we had, about the love, the relationship. Yes—but that’s not seeing the elephant in the room. It’s about looking for the reason for the death. It’s about opening Pandora’s box.

[Juanita Pizano]: I don’t like that comment from third parties—why are you all so angry? That old comment you hear all the time to women: calm down. No, I’m not angry or hysterical. I just want to know what happened. The three of us—my mom, my sister, and I—would like the Attorney General’s Office to carry out all of the duties that correspond to it, properly and legally, because it didn’t do so at the time.

Credits

[David]: La Ruta del Sol is a podcast by Central, the narrative series channel of Radio Ambulante Studios, and it’s part of iHeartRadio’s My Cultura podcast network.

The reporting and production of this episode were done by me, David Trujillo. The lead editor is Camila Segura, with additional editing by Daniel Alarcón, Silvia Viñas, and Eliezer Budasoff. Eliezer is the project manager. Fact-checking was done by Bruno Scelza and Sergio Sebastián Retavisca. Legal review was conducted by Camilo Vallejo. Sound design and mixing were done by Martín Cruz, with original music by Andrés Nusser. The graphic design and art direction for the series are by Diego Corzo.

Product development for La Ruta del Sol was led by Natalia Ramírez. Digital production was handled by Nelson Rauda and Óscar Luna, with support from Lina Rincón and Samantha Proaño, from the Radio Ambulante Studios audience team.

La Ruta del Sol was recorded at Fiona Records.

At iHeart, the executive producers are Arlene Santana and Leo Gomez.

We would like to thank FLIP for their valuable support in the legal review of this production and for their advice on security matters.

Carolina Guerrero is the executive producer of Central and the CEO of Radio Ambulante Studios.

You can follow us on social media as central podcast RA and subscribe to our newsletter at centralpodcast.audio.

I’m David Trujillo. Thanks for listening.